Sizes and scale in Oolite (again)

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Diziet Sma
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Sizes and scale in Oolite (again)

Post by Diziet Sma » Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:53 am

Moderator: Split from Planetary Compass OXP thread in Expansion Pack.
GGShinobi wrote:I actually like that - with this combined info one can figure out how big a planet is. I've encountered incredibly big planets which looked like they where very close, but in reality they where almost twice as big as the sun they where orbiting :lol:
Hehehe.. don't get too hung up on distances & sizes in Oolite.. for a variety of game-engine & gameplay reasons, everything in Oolite is either much bigger or much smaller than it should be.. it makes for no end of confusion. :lol: If you want some background, see this thread and related links in the discussion.
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Re: Planetary Compass OXP

Post by GGShinobi » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:27 am

Diziet Sma wrote:
GGShinobi wrote:I actually like that - with this combined info one can figure out how big a planet is. I've encountered incredibly big planets which looked like they where very close, but in reality they where almost twice as big as the sun they where orbiting :lol:
Hehehe.. don't get too hung up on distances & sizes in Oolite.. for a variety of game-engine & gameplay reasons, everything in Oolite is either much bigger or much smaller than it should be.. it makes for no end of confusion. :lol: If you want some background, see this thread and related links in the discussion.
Yes, I think you are right. Wow, I see this is really a biiiig topic!! I also already wondered how so many ships can fit inside those tiny space stations :P then I found a wiki page :?: that explains that the ships get "shrunk" by a system similar to the "Hyper Cargo System". From that point on, I always imagined the docking effect not as a "fly-in"-effect, but as the approaching shrinking-rays :lol:
tiny
But what does it matter? What matters is that it works and is fun!! Frontier tried to be ultra-realistic... this led to the situation that I sold my MKIII there and traded it against a tiny falcon (intentionally written in lower case letters), because it was the ship with the strongest acceleration in the game. I equipped it with a mining laser and became a bounty hunter / hired killer. That was the only way that I was able to have some kind of fun in dogfighting and with the game. I really liked the look of that mega-big trader ship, but flying it was... :x naaaah I don't wanna remember! :cry:
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Re: Planetary Compass OXP

Post by cim » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:01 am

GGShinobi wrote:I also already wondered how so many ships can fit inside those tiny space stations
A standard Coriolis, in Oolite's scale, is almost a cubic kilometre of space. You can fit a thousand Cobra IIIs inside one with plenty of room to spare - even allowing for the station being more than a giant parking bay, you could easily fit a few hundred ships around the main axis (bearing in mind that the Cobra III is a large ship and most are considerably smaller) and still have room for a wide range of other facilities (fitted out as habitation, it could easily support a million people)

The problem is that at the speed your ship goes you can zip past it in three seconds, and that just makes it look really small.

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Re: Planetary Compass OXP

Post by GGShinobi » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:14 pm

cim wrote:
GGShinobi wrote:I also already wondered how so many ships can fit inside those tiny space stations
A standard Coriolis, in Oolite's scale, is almost a cubic kilometre of space. You can fit a thousand Cobra IIIs inside one with plenty of room to spare...
ok, I should have said "tiny looking" space stations!

I think it is (almost (see edits)) like Diziet Sma said:
Diziet Sma wrote:Hehehe.. don't get too hung up on distances & sizes in Oolite.. for a variety of game-engine & gameplay reasons, everything in Oolite is seems either much bigger or much smaller than it should be.. (edited for clarification ;-))
For example take the description of the Coriolis stations inside the wiki (http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Coriol ... 8Oolite%29). It says the size of the landing dock is 192m x 64m x 250m. But then (compared to the enormous size of the station) the dock (and, of course most ships that come out of it) should look much, much smaller.

But please don't misunderstand me: I'm completely fine with that! I even kinda like that. :P I think it gives the game a certain charme, which perfectly fits that it doesn't take itself too seriously, but has much much humour indeed. :)
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Re: Planetary Compass OXP

Post by Wildeblood » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:19 pm

GGShinobi wrote:For example take the description of the Coriolis stations inside the wiki. It says the size of the landing dock is 192m x 64m x 250m. But then (compared to the enormous size of the station) the dock (and, of course most ships that come out of it) should look much, much smaller.
Why should something look smaller than it is? What an odd assertion to make.

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Re: Planetary Compass OXP

Post by GGShinobi » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:34 am

Wildeblood wrote:
GGShinobi wrote:For example take the description of the Coriolis stations inside the wiki. It says the size of the landing dock is 192m x 64m x 250m. But then (compared to the enormous size of the station) the dock (and, of course most ships that come out of it) should look much, much smaller.
Why should something look smaller than it is? What an odd assertion to make.
Whoops :shock: now that you say it, I looked again and have to admit that you both are right. The dimensions are displayed correctly. I don't know why, but I've always felt that the stations look much too small...

Well, perhaps my excuse is that I've never been good at "visual realism" :lol:

Thanks for making that clear to me!! :mrgreen:
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Re: Planetary Compass OXP

Post by PhantorGorth » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:27 pm

cim wrote:
GGShinobi wrote:I also already wondered how so many ships can fit inside those tiny space stations
A standard Coriolis, in Oolite's scale, is almost a cubic kilometre of space. You can fit a thousand Cobra IIIs inside one with plenty of room to spare - even allowing for the station being more than a giant parking bay, you could easily fit a few hundred ships around the main axis (bearing in mind that the Cobra III is a large ship and most are considerably smaller) and still have room for a wide range of other facilities (fitted out as habitation, it could easily support a million people)

The problem is that at the speed your ship goes you can zip past it in three seconds, and that just makes it look really small.
I would like to throw in my take on the Coriolis interior which looks like this:Image

Mind I am thinking this conversation on stations and dimensions should be split out into another thread.
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Re: Planetary Compass OXP

Post by Diziet Sma » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:00 am

Very neat and sensible layout there, PG! I like it. 8)
Most games have some sort of paddling-pool-and-water-wings beginning to ease you in: Oolite takes the rather more Darwinian approach of heaving you straight into the ocean, often with a brick or two in your pockets for luck. ~ Disembodied

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Re: Sizes and scale in Oolite (again)

Post by another_commander » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:05 pm

Sizes and scales discussion split from the Planetary Compass OXP thread in Expansion Pack.

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Re: Sizes and scale in Oolite (again)

Post by Amaranth » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:09 pm

Clever idea but...I think you would need the floors to be circular in profile, otherwise there would be some awkward off-grav sections near the joins (the gravity would be 22.5 degrees out near these points). Bear in mind that the gravity is produced using rotation only, so it would operate radially from the axis of rotation. I imagine a coriolis in some ways to be fairly like (front section only of) Babylon 5 for how it 'works' .
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Re: Sizes and scale in Oolite (again)

Post by PhantorGorth » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:56 pm

Amaranth wrote:Clever idea but...I think you would need the floors to be circular in profile, otherwise there would be some awkward off-grav sections near the joins (the gravity would be 22.5 degrees out near these points). Bear in mind that the gravity is produced using rotation only, so it would operate radially from the axis of rotation. I imagine a coriolis in some ways to be fairly like (front section only of) Babylon 5 for how it 'works' .
If you look more carefully you will see that I have taken that into account with the use of artifical gravity (big black arrows) and references to Gravity Transistion Zones. Yes the station is spinning but that would only just reduce the amount of energy spent on artificial gravity. If it wasn't for the artificial gravity the floors near the axis would have low "gravity".
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Re: Sizes and scale in Oolite (again)

Post by Selezen » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:40 am

The Dark Wheel wrote:Alex checked out of the ship's berth and took a sky taxi across the void. The tiny automatic ship slid delicately and smoothly between the incoming and outgoing ships. Alex watched in fascination as the towering buildings of South City dropped away below and the grey sky edged closer. To his left, he could see the pattern of streets and parklands on the inhabited plane known as Commander City. Facing the entrance to the station, on that particular level lived the high ranking officials and various planetary envoys and ambassadors. They enjoyed a landscape which included lakes, rivers and ski-slopes with real snow.

Below him, the Nemesis became a tiny dart-shape on the broad landing pad. Above him, the towering offices and living blocks reached down towards him like geometrical stalactites.

There was an abrupt moment's disorientation and suddenly the roof was the ground and now the
Nemesis was a single, winking light in the heavens. The taxi dropped swiftly to street level, between the grey and black monolithic structures. Lights of different colours blinked and shone, and when the atmosphere began, a strange dusty shimmer seemed to envelop the city.
Since that content is regarded as "canon", it doesn't fit too well with the layout you've posted. Don't get me wrong, I think your layout is damn good (so well done).

Amiga Elite showed the interior of the docking bay too, with room for about 6 ships. I always theorised that there were more of these bays and that the one seen was just the one you had been assigned a bay in, and the "lift" from the docking slot would be diverted as required. This would then mean that when someone wanted to launch the bay would have to be lined up with the slot. Not very practical. Another idea that worked better was that the bay you see is just the arrival/departure bay, and that there were other longer term bays around that one where ships would be moved to and from to make room for new arrivals or departing residents.

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Re: Planetary Compass OXP

Post by GGShinobi » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:52 pm

PhantorGorth wrote:
cim wrote:I would like to throw in my take on the Coriolis interior which looks like this:Image
Awesome image in my opinion!! :shock:
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Re: Sizes and scale in Oolite (again)

Post by PhantorGorth » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:19 pm

Selezen wrote:
The Dark Wheel wrote:Alex checked out of the ship's berth and took a sky taxi across the void. The tiny automatic ship slid delicately and smoothly between the incoming and outgoing ships. Alex watched in fascination as the towering buildings of South City dropped away below and the grey sky edged closer. To his left, he could see the pattern of streets and parklands on the inhabited plane known as Commander City. Facing the entrance to the station, on that particular level lived the high ranking officials and various planetary envoys and ambassadors. They enjoyed a landscape which included lakes, rivers and ski-slopes with real snow.

Below him, the Nemesis became a tiny dart-shape on the broad landing pad. Above him, the towering offices and living blocks reached down towards him like geometrical stalactites.

There was an abrupt moment's disorientation and suddenly the roof was the ground and now the
Nemesis was a single, winking light in the heavens. The taxi dropped swiftly to street level, between the grey and black monolithic structures. Lights of different colours blinked and shone, and when the atmosphere began, a strange dusty shimmer seemed to envelop the city.
Since that content is regarded as "canon", it doesn't fit too well with the layout you've posted. Don't get me wrong, I think your layout is damn good (so well done).
It's been a very long time since I read The Dark Wheel and I didn't remember that at all. What I will say is that my diagram is just suggestive and was more an exercise in "logical" parking layouts and other details. Given that the station is meant to be a kilometre across my floors shown would really be about 8 stories tall.

There is no reason you could not have a cityscape like layout. I chose a simple pyramid layout to suggest those surfaces would not be flat but would give as many views of the central space from windows, balconies, etc. Also you get less issues as you reach "corners".

Given that I am assuming the existance of gravity control technology, having the facing wall a surface with a landscaped parkland is again not out the question. Thought I imagine due to the surface on that face being at right-angles to the axis of rotation it would be at a high energy cost. Also at a kilometre across (well a bit less on the inside) I doubt that there would be room for "lakes, rivers and ski-slopes". Maybe the Coriolis discussed in The Dark Wheel is larger than normal. It certaining feels that way from the descriptions in that passage.

I chose to have the centre of that face as a container yard because without gravity control that area would have very little "gravity" from centrifugal/inertial force so it made a sensible location for something not requiring gravity (i.e. cargo). Also it has easy access to the ships for loading and unloading. (I imagine lots of container shifting robots darting between the ships parked and those coming and going.)

Another thought is that these stations are built to order and separated over long periods of time so there is no reason to expect the inside of one Coriolis station to be exactly the same as the next. And of course there is the idea that we don't have to be tied to any sense of "canon". It is every person's game as they want it.

I am glad you liked it though. Thanks :-)

edit: changed use of the term "anti-gravity" for "gravity control"
Last edited by PhantorGorth on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Planetary Compass OXP

Post by CommRLock78 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:04 pm

GGShinobi wrote: Awesome image in my opinion!! :shock:
Indeed - I saved the image only to realize I had another version of the exact same thing which I had downloaded months ago in pdf form :D.
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