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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:23 am 
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After following a thread on the peculiar nature of Galaxy 4 (here) I have created a new version of the map:

Ooniverse Map with Species Idea v2.pdf

Phantor Gorth

Edit 25/4/2017 - fixed URL to file


Last edited by PhantorGorth on Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:04 am 
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It's a good idea and a nice diagram!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:06 pm 
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Interesting. This is over and above what we're doing with the maps at the moment, but as we have (I believe) a shared interest in the further evolution of the oolite universe (from a writers point of view, at the very least). Might I profer some further musings on the nature of the evolution of the ooniverse.

Gene manipulation makes sense for a number of reasons.

1) At some point humanity (the more scientific end of society anyway) has to realise that it is not the be all and end all of evolution. Whist we are perfectly adapted to earth (at the current point in it's environmental progression) There are many other natural forms that with the addition of larger brains, would be better suited to initial exploration;

Rodent dna: Resistant to radiation, prolific, intelligent.

Lizard dna; Old and fundamentally viable gene stock, contains many of the basic forms that are utilised and adapted by more complex life forms. Capable of quickly adapting to many different local conditions.

Frog dna; Great bridging species capable of surviving indeterminate periods of hibernation during inhospitable periods. Excellently adapted to deal with repeated and invasive flooding.

Lobster dna; Adaptive and tough in it's adult form these creatures are hardy and opportunistic. With massive growth penitential (they start as near plankton after all) they can weather extreme pressures utilizing any natural resource.

Bird dna: Flight and it's close association with reptile dna enable speedy movement (and therefor proliferation) in equal and denser gasious atmospheres.

Humanoid dna: Ah vanity, if we could only remix ourselves from animal dna and keep something recognisably human but more hardy to “local conditions”

Feline dna: Current top predator, adaptable, hardy, intelligent and most importantly sociable this is a second wave seeding species.

Insects.dna: Insanely resistant to the effects of radiation. Socially orientated, speedy evolution due to short life span.

These are logical choices for space fairing species and together (with bacterial life) provide a biological “swiss army knife” approch to basic colonization

2)Never underestimate the power of human near sightedness;
OK the original idea might have been send these creatures off to test the waters, but humans may not have fully understood the evolutionary potential of the seeds they were spreading. Much like the 60's civil rights movement. Humanity might not be the best placed to accept on equal terms the new intellegences that they created.

Unfortunately walking in with an “we made you, you owe us” attitude. Humanity was maybe not best placed to retain control over their creations.

3) Never underestimate the power of species specific faith: “Man was made in gods image.” Therefore all things that are not purely human are not the works of god and are therefore fundamentally flawed.
They say the first wave of colonists are the builders then follow the religious misfits. Both are prepared to die chasing “new Eden” For long space travel, you need the kind of unilateral social cohesion that only faith has (so far) been able to scientifically provide. The problem is it's insular and usually actively encourages outward barbarity. Not the best politicians. Remember every generation ship is a genocide bomb waiting to go off.

4)History is written by the winners, and the winners are not necessarily the good guys. We take the diversity of a thousand different genetic solutions spawnd from a single seed that we planted and kall them all “lobsters” or “rodents” or “cats”. Sounds like racist thinking to me and very VERY Human.

Basically the state of the ooniverse is a standard shortsighted human FUBAR. A shining technical triumph but a catastrophic organizational and social failure.

As for the thargons well that's easy: We Are Cancer.

Humanity = Cancer
Rodents = Throat cancer
Lobsters = Bowel cancer
Cats = Skin cancer

“The perfect mind of the swarm has been tainted with a multitude of corrupting memes and thoughts of self worth and selfish reason. The perfect, reasoned mind of the universe (and the only way by which it TRUELY knows of it's own unique glory) is in danger and must be defended and maintained.

These “humans” own reckless actions and lust for domination have shown them to be unworthy custodians of knowledge. They will fall. They must fall.”

This is the world in which we find ourselves, this is (or should be) the world of oolite.

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Last edited by ClymAngus on Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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8) 'nuff said

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:47 pm 
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Excellently done, ClymAngus. A very good read, very thoughtful.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:13 pm 
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One small caveat, this idea of gene modding, doesn't explain the basic idea you've had of species regions. It does explain why the species are so diverse and evenly spread. I hate to rain on anyones parade but if we used the species region hypothesis, we would expect to see species clusters and we don't. It's possible with time that maybe each variation might come to feel that a specific place has a cultural or quazi religious significance. But given local genetic drift and environmental pressures it's unlikely and certainly not at the time the maps were drawn up.

But then we would expect to see Newtonian physics and a workable sizing system too, soooo you might as well slip your work in as gospel and add to;

"The Wonder that is (Don't F**k up a fantasy with a factoid) unexplainable Oolite contrary."

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:28 am 
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I hate to rain on anyones parade but if we used the species region hypothesis, we would expect to see species clusters and we don't.
I agree it doesn't on its own. I came up with the idea before I heard of the genetic idea. I had the idea to answer the where all the species came from and why the GalCop zones are exactly same sized rectangles (cuboids) of space. If you go with the genetic idea, which has plenty of merits (mind I do find the selezen's random seeding idea too artificial, but seeding based on the type of world found is more logical) we still need to explain a few things:

1) Humans at some point discover interstellar space flight and therefore would have colonised a spherical shell centred around Sol of which the Galaxy 1 is just a subset. (this fits in with everything I know of space outside of Galaxy 1)
a) If Galactic Hyperdrive is known to all of Humanity and other species then there would be a shell of equal size to the one around Sol centred near and engulfing each of other galaxies, But we have no references to those worlds, and their relationship to GalCop and other organisations, where as we do for Galaxy 1. Surely they would either form their own agglomerations or be part of the existing GalFed etc.
b) If Galactic Hyperdrive is only available to GalCop Citizens (e.g. single source of production and made physically dangerous to reverse engineer and would have to have been developed/discovered after the formation of GalCop) then colonization would have expanded in each other Galaxy centred on that galaxy. This would mean that worlds outside of Galaxies 2 to 8 would be colonized by GalCop and therefore likely to be part of GalCop yet they don't appear on the map.

2) After either scenario 1a) or 1b) you would have regions outside of each galaxy with Human Colonists in them. So why would the other species migrate out of Galaxy 1 to Galaxy 2 etc if they are persecuted. The other galaxies wouldn't be any better. I very much doubt humans would migrate back to Galaxy 1. Genocide would be a more logical explanation, not that I would like that.

If we can get around these issues great.

With the separate species idea you kill several avians with one stone.

1) It explains why there are different species. And lobsters are not derived from Earth lobsters but happen by convergent evolution to look similar and hence get that name when referred to by Humans. Same goes for the other species. (This implies that there are likely to be many other species we haven't met yet distributed throughout the Milky Way galaxy.)

2) The same rectangles of GalCop space in each galaxy sector is based on treaty with all species factions. ("Yes, you may break away from GalFed but don't involve worlds outside your zone, or else") Please note that each galaxy is likely to be near a species not actually invading their space when GalCop formed. Later expansion by each species may put a GalCop galaxy sector inside a species space. Further, GalCop galaxies will have a mix of species as clauses in the treaty could allow GalCop some control of colonisation of space in those regions. Colonisation patterns (or lack there of) is down to GalCop policy. In the space surrounding or near each galaxy there are only worlds of one (or maybe two) species and also any non-GalCop worlds inside the galaxies (if any) aren't shown on the map anyway. Hence the lack of species clustering in the GalCop maps. (Although I am suggesting a slight lizard/feline clustering in Galaxy 4)

3) At some point the Galactic Hyperdrive starts to fail and GalCop collapses. Either could come first and failure of Hyperdrive could or could not be a factor in GalCop's demise. Either point (but both is better) would give impetus for large numbers of each species to migrate away to other galaxies. They would likely head back to their appropriate sector. Then any remaining non-human species in Galaxy 1 would be minorities and therefore wouldn't be mentioned anywhere near as much.

Please note: GalCop monopoly on Galactic Hyperdrive technology is also a good idea as this reduces interactions between species that do not involve GalCop. GalCop then becomes the agency that co-ordinates the war with the Thargoids, and the end of this war can then be another factor in GalCop's demise.

Either if the different species are genetic developments or independent species, the ring of Galaxy Sectors with the Thargoids in the centre makes sense. I would also suggest that the Thargoids are the reason the Galactic Hyperdrive vectors form a near circular loop. I have the idea that the Thargoids are invading from another "real" galaxy (e.g. Andromeda) and there is a giant wormhole at the centre of the loop. This wormhole is the reason the Galactic Hyperdrive loops. The war with the Thargoids ends, bar mop-up operations, when the wormhole is collapsed. This then causes the Hyperdrive vectors to slowly migrate back to their original vectors (I suggest that this is looping anti-clockwise around Milky Way galaxy instead, caused by the distorting effect of the Milky Way's central black hole.) or eventual failure altogether. If you go with this then the question becomes why invade from another galaxy. That could be they are from a small satellite galaxy and have exhausted their resources or maybe there is a threat worse than the Thargoids they are running from.

Phantor Gorth


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:58 am 
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I think there is a flaw in the story. According to FFE thargoid space in closer to Galaxy center than sol. In the diagram we have the opposite. Thargoid space is closer to the outer arm of the Galaxy


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:00 am 
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But then we would expect to see Newtonian physics and a workable sizing system too, soooo you might as well slip your work in as gospel and add to;
Good point. But I wouldn't want to just slip it in (no innuendo intended) without agreement and support from others.

Phantor Gorth


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:04 am 
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I think there is a flaw in the story. According to FFE thargoid space in closer to Galaxy center than sol. In the diagram we have the opposite. Thargoid space is closer to the outer arm of the Galaxy
That's easy to fix I just move the loop around. The layout I suggested is just an example. And with the galactic centre being so far away there is plenty of room to put the loop inside of Sol's position in the Milky Way

Phantor Gorth


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:24 am 
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Good point. But I wouldn't want to just slip it in (no innuendo intended) without agreement and support from others.

Phantor Gorth
I think its generally accepted that people can write more or less whatever they want, but nothing is considered 'canon' except elite, and sometimes FFE. Everything else is a kind of limbo which may or may not be followed in other peoples work, but you shouldnt feel constrained, just stick it out there.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:00 am 
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Here is an updated map to take on aboard the fact that Thargoid space is meant to be closer to the galactic centre than Sol:

Ooniverse Map with Species Idea v3.pdf

Phantor Gorth

Edit 25/4/2017 - fixed URL on file


Last edited by PhantorGorth on Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:05 am 
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Quote:
I agree it doesn't on its own. I came up with the idea before I heard of the genetic idea. I had the idea to answer the where all the species came from and why the GalCop zones are exactly same sized rectangles (cuboids) of space. If you go with the genetic idea, which has plenty of merits (mind I do find the selezen's random seeding idea too artificial, but seeding based on the type of world found is more logical) we still need to explain a few things:
Sweet a challenge! fire away!
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1) Humans at some point discover interstellar space flight and therefore would have colonised a spherical shell centred around Sol of which the Galaxy 1 is just a subset. (this fits in with everything I know of space outside of Galaxy 1)
So kind of like the old worlds then? Ok with you up to this point.

a) If Galactic Hyperdrive is known to all of Humanity and other species then there would be a shell of equal size to the one around Sol centred near and engulfing each of other galaxies, But we have no references to those worlds, and their relationship to GalCop and other organisations, where as we do for Galaxy 1. Surely they would either form their own agglomerations or be part of the existing GalFed etc.
b) If Galactic Hyperdrive is only available to GalCop Citizens (e.g. single source of production and made physically dangerous to reverse engineer and would have to have been developed/discovered after the formation of GalCop) then colonization would have expanded in each other Galaxy centred on that galaxy. This would mean that worlds outside of Galaxies 2 to 8 would be colonized by GalCop and therefore likely to be part of GalCop yet they don't appear on the map.[/quote]

Well there are a number of possibilities given what we know about the canon. We know there were 3 waves of exploration, the generation ships and the faster than light witch drives and the gal drive.

Generation ships probably didn't get very far or are still getting there, they'll be pretty much all in gal1 still.

Witch drives shrink things considerably. But only in a local group. As for invention there is still several issues of origination going on here. See below.

Gal drives now you see that's a tricky one because that's a 2 part system. It's like a motorway; the men who made the car didn't nessessarily make the road on which it travels. So far as far as I can see although the gal drive can access the routes, galcorp didn't make the road.

This begs the question did galcorp actually make the witch drive "roads" as well (if they even need roads)? If they didn't and they're just "riding the tube (and not telling anyone)" then this would happily explain why the sectors are a certain size. Maybe the routes accessible to galcorp are more expansive but they just go to dead systems or unpolice-able ones. No one wants a handy dandy system 1 ly from lave that separatists can construct a planet killer on then witch it over. It would be very embarrassing.

This fits with the Mutablis Raxxla, DarkWheel and Drews general postulations regarding the Galcorp exists on and profits off Hijacked high technology.

We have to accept the distasteful possibility that humanity is piggy backing off an elder race and is only exploring as far as they did, less even. It's like a pack of primates living on a cruse ship. Everything will be hunky dory until things start to go wrong.

This would explain the witch space routes are restricted. Given the methods and motives available to galcorp. The corporate body cannot progress because the existing accessible routes are unprofitable or further expansion is too expensive R&D wise.
Quote:
2) After either scenario 1a) or 1b) you would have regions outside of each galaxy with Human Colonists in them. So why would the other species migrate out of Galaxy 1 to Galaxy 2 etc if they are persecuted. The other galaxies wouldn't be any better. I very much doubt humans would migrate back to Galaxy 1. Genocide would be a more logical explanation, not that I would like that.

If we can get around these issues great.
Not if Humanity or it's genetic brethren. Cannot get there.

Anyway just things to think about. I will admit we are suffering from "neat little box" syndrome here.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:41 am 
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I always considered the witchdrive to be physical possible to use to go to any point inside a radius your fuel tank would let you. Only GalCop technology licensing or some such thing prevents you from getting the navigation system to take you there. Such as the engine's "firmware" restricting you from selecting non-GalCop worlds and places in the middle of nowhere. This would be a mixture of safety and politics. people in GalFed space would probably be restricted in the same way just different worlds. Military Engines wouldn't be restricted in such ways.

To discover the witchspace drive technology via xenoarchology I find difficult to go with due the fact that we would need to found it in the Sol system or in a close system reachable by Generation ships. Galactic drive on the other hand it makes sense that we discovered that via xenoarchology. As this is a one way only drive I wouldn't want to be the first to have tried it. You would really want to know that you could get back the long way round before using it.

Again with Galactic drive I see it as a drive free to use from anywhere and where you go is a vector displacement based on where you currently are. I have never used it in the game but I believe you can use it anywhere and it takes you to the same point on the next galaxy. Although I can see from looking at the source code you can recompile the software to give different Gal. drive behaviours.

The drive methods and who has control over the technology can have a major impact on the species origin concepts and the history timeline.

Phantor Gorth


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:03 pm 
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I always considered the witchdrive to be physical possible to use to go to any point inside a radius your fuel tank would let you. Only GalCop technology licensing or some such thing prevents you from getting the navigation system to take you there. Such as the engine's "firmware" restricting you from selecting non-GalCop worlds and places in the middle of nowhere. This would be a mixture of safety and politics. people in GalFed space would probably be restricted in the same way just different worlds. Military Engines wouldn't be restricted in such ways.
Easy to test. Set a course to no where and travel there with screen shots. (Without fudging it by pulling up you stick just before you jump.) Any hypothosis must explain the things we do see. I see locked down specific routes of travel. The nature of those routes, is not explained. The fact they are there and the only way you can go when your playing the game should not be ignored.

It's like drawing, draw what you see not what you think you see.
Around that which is there, feel free to embellish.
Quote:
To discover the witchspace drive technology via xenoarchology I find difficult to go with due the fact that we would need to found it in the Sol system or in a close system reachable by Generation ships. Galactic drive on the other hand it makes sense that we discovered that via xenoarchology. As this is a one way only drive I wouldn't want to be the first to have tried it. You would really want to know that you could get back the long way round before using it.
Could one not be seen as a logical progression of the other? It's like taking a bicycle on a motorway, sure it can be done but it's dumb. A complete system is found. Do you really expect humanity to take one look at and replicate it perfectly? I admire your faith in humans, but I do not share it.

A broken ship was found, within time the witch drive was created by rudimentary retro-tech. The witch tunnels were "discovered" as a consequence of this. As the retro-tech became more refined so the gal-tunnels were discovered and utilised. It shows evolution and logical technical progression. Humans as a technically parasitic species.
Quote:
Again with Galactic drive I see it as a drive free to use from anywhere and where you go is a vector displacement based on where you currently are. I have never used it in the game but I believe you can use it anywhere and it takes you to the same point on the next galaxy. Although I can see from looking at the source code you can recompile the software to give different Gal. drive behaviours.
Again not supported by in game experience. Gal-drive off the map. You can't.
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The drive methods and who has control over the technology can have a major impact on the species origin concepts and the history timeline.

Phantor Gorth
There in lies the problem. The assumption of control as opposed to an opportunistic usage of a higher technology. "any damn fool can pull a trigger and most people who do, cannot make a gun"

To clarify, I'm not having a go. This thing we call oolite is a game and as such doesn't really matter in the greater scheme of things. but you did profess an interest in logically plodding through possibilities and I do love an optimistic (and slightly scientific) flight of foolish fancy. If the idea draws you then cool, write it. Devils advocate is a light speciality of mine.

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