Inconsistencies and the Wiki

General discussion for players of Oolite.

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snork
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Re: Inconsistencies and the Wiki

Post by snork » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:47 pm

hej,

As Albee made aware of incorrectnesses, I have started to edit a little the oldships' ships' wikipages, to be congruent with what the oxp's shipdata and shipyard plists contain. (I still have to find ingame a Cat and a Iguana, to see what the game makes of not-clear-to-me entries in the plists.)

But I do not like it for two reasons :
1) There are 3 oxps that contain some or all of these ships, sometimes with different specs.
So, should these different specs be reflected by secondary or even tertiary individual infoboxes ? Or rather have several entries per field, as it does now for the pricing for oldships and PAG 2010 oldships ? This also can get kind of messy.

2) I wonder if the oldships.oxp had been edited by someone ("un-authorised"?) in the past ?
basically every ship where it said on the wiki Extra Cargo Bay : n/a had the x-CB specified in the shipdata/ shipyard plists, and ships that according to the wiki had x-CB : so-so TC (with faulty values) do not have so by shipdata/ shipyard plists. Strange. :?

Moreover the entries for the extra cargo bay are "un-cleanly" indented, no idea if this could be a sign for later-on inserting of these entries ?

Anyway, maybe murgh would want to / could have a look into the oxp ?
and clean up some messy entries on the way ?

No use in adapting the wiki pages if it turns out the oxp had been "hacked" in the first place.

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Re: Inconsistencies and the Wiki

Post by Staer9 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:44 pm

snork wrote:There are 3 oxps that contain some or all of these ships, sometimes with different specs.
So, should these different specs be reflected by secondary or even tertiary individual infoboxes ?
Is my Soon-to-be-released shipset included in these 3 different OXPs? Just to be clear I made sure all the specs were the same as those stated on the wiki pages.

B.t.w I think it would be better just to add extra section to the infoboxes e.g. "price (oxp 1): 100" then "price (oxp 2): 125" rather than have duplicte infoboxes
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Re: Inconsistencies and the Wiki

Post by maik » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:48 pm

In my opinion the OXPs are the source of truth for ship stats, so the wiki pages should be amended if they are wrong. When there is a variant of a ship with different specs then I would put a note on the wiki page that belongs to the variant or its OXP (e.g. Old Ships 2010 vs. Old Ships) and make it clear on the page for the originals that the specs are true only for the original but can differ for the variants.

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Re: Inconsistencies and the Wiki

Post by Diziet Sma » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:49 pm

CheeseRedux wrote:
Smivs wrote:It doesn't quite square with the bit higher up but I suppose if B&B were Navy sub-contractors (which is quite possible) we have our answer.
Reading the two sections next to each other, they do seem to be more than just a bit contradictory.
I guess the narrative wold go something along the lane of the Navy observing the thing in action, and then B&B, knowing what they were looking for and that it was possible, cracked the code.
I don't quite agree with that assessment.. the Elite Manual specifically states, (emphasis mine)
(this was originally a Thargoid invention to counter Navy missiles, subsequently copied by the Navy from captured Thargoid ships)
Given that B&B had captured Thargoid technology to study, it might be more accurate to say that they reverse-engineered the ECM.
Smivs wrote:Before this thread gets too derailed can I just ask once more if anyone has any objections to my proposed update to the Wiki regarding the ECM?
No objection from me.. but I'd like to propose a slightly different wording (and a grammar fix.. should be its.. not it's, which is short for "it is" - Oh yeah, and riedquat ought to be capitalised.)
The ECM was developed by Bell and Braben on Riedquat 359 and is believed to have been reverse-engineered from Thargoid technology captured by the Navy, who ordered its development.
Most games have some sort of paddling-pool-and-water-wings beginning to ease you in: Oolite takes the rather more Darwinian approach of heaving you straight into the ocean, often with a brick or two in your pockets for luck. ~ Disembodied

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Re: Inconsistencies and the Wiki

Post by Eric Walch » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:47 pm

snork wrote:2) I wonder if the oldships.oxp had been edited by someone ("un-authorised"?) in the past ?.....

....Moreover the entries for the extra cargo bay are "un-cleanly" indented, no idea if this could be a sign for later-on inserting of these entries ?
I think the cargo bay is original. In my archive, the read-me writes:

Code: Select all

an Oolite OXP
oldships v.3.2
by murgh
aug2-2006
And the creation date of the files are all a few minutes after midnight on the 3th of August 2006. Even that one already had the EQ_CARGO_BAY for all ships except the cat. All equipment is aligned with tabs, while the EQ_CARGO_BAY is aligned with spaces. I assume Murg himself added those in a new release. It was already version 3.2 after all.

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Re: Inconsistencies and the Wiki

Post by snork » Thu May 03, 2012 5:11 pm

Thanks for the feedback - so I will go edit in one single infobox for them all style. :mrgreen:
Staer9 wrote:]Is my Soon-to-be-released shipset included in these 3 different OXPs?
nope, so far just Oldships, pagroove's Oldships 2010, and Neolite companion.

But if you haven't already done so, then I will mention your oxp in the idividual ship's "where to buy" section. :)

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Re: Inconsistencies and the Wiki

Post by Staer9 » Fri May 04, 2012 7:58 am

snork wrote:But if you haven't already done so, then I will mention your oxp in the idividual ship's "where to buy" section.
You don't need to, mine has a copy of the Neolite shipyard plist (with a couple of changes), as far as I'm aware that one was correct.
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Re: Inconsistencies and the Wiki

Post by Svengali » Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:32 pm

Some thoughts about the WIKI.

1. To give new OXPers and WIKI-Editors a good starting point maybe we could add a simple example (maybe linked from the http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Wikipe ... ng_content page). Usually OXPs don't need much infos - what, requirements and where to get it (plus categories) should cover most needs. Instructions how to install is covered on the [wiki]OXP[/wiki] page, OXP version histories are better placed in the readme and a lot of text for the license isn't necessary as well and the license itself is covered in the Infobox OXPb template. So a simple example could look like (if used directly for a OXP page remove the nowiki and pre tags):

Code: Select all

<pre><nowiki>
==Quick Facts==
{{Infobox OXPb| title = MYOXPName
|version = 1.0
|release = 2012-01-01
|license = CC-by-nc-sa
|features = Images and Music
|category = 
|author = Me and some others
|feedback = Link to the BB
}}

==Overview==
A quick introduction in your OXP.

==Requirements==
* This [[OXP]] needs Oolite v1.76.1.
* List dependencies here.

==Download==
{{OXPLevel|0}}
* Link to the file (e.g. [http://www.xyz/myfile1.0.zip myfile1.0.zip]) and filesize.

----
[[Category:Oolite expansion packs]]
</nowiki></pre>
2. A lot of work is still to do. So if you have an account, please help to reduce the numbers. The WIKI needs you. Current status is:

Code: Select all

 134 Dead end pages
  39 Orphaned pages
  50 Uncategorized pages
   5 Wanted Categories
 991 Wanted pages
   1 Wanted template
   1 OXP stubs
   1 Oolite Ship Lists Stubs
   2 Oolite carrier stubs
 122 Oolite ship stubs
   6 Oolite station stubs
 104 Stubs
3. After taking a look at DrBeebs [wiki]Planet_Scanner[/wiki] I think it's time to remove the (lots of) links to non existing pages as the work has been abandoned since 2009 and the related OXP has never been released. The other data on these pages may be valuable for OXPers.

What do you think?

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Re: Inconsistencies and the Wiki

Post by maik » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:05 pm

991 wanted pages?!

This starting point is a good suggestion. What I'd like to see is one wiki page for each OXP. Today, a large number of OXPs only have their description here in the BB.

The version history on the wiki page is certainly not essential but gives you a quick overview of what actually caused the version change / date change in the OXP List. So you can decide before you download it if you want to skip the new version or not.

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Re: Inconsistencies and the Wiki

Post by Svengali » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:11 pm

maik wrote:991 wanted pages?!
Down to 697 after editing the entries for galaxy 6-8. As I've said it's a lot of links to non existing pages .-)

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Re: Inconsistencies and the Wiki

Post by maik » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:12 pm

I see the great amount of work you're putting in in the recent changes rss feed. Thanks a lot already now!

Oh, and happy to see you are using the newly available parser functions extension :D

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Re: Inconsistencies and the Wiki

Post by Svengali » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:59 pm

Thanks maik, I've completed the Planet Scanner cleanup and we are down to 283 Wanted pages.

But now OXPers and WIKI-Editors should take a look if they can do something to fill in the missing bits. After all the WIKI is a collaboration tool and it's not hard to put some words on the WIKI .-) If we are all doing a small part of the work we're getting a really good starting point for the Semantic MediaWiki feature - autogenerated lists!!! This would definitely reduce the amount of work for all of us.

And yes .-) The parser extension was on my wishlist for quite some time. I'm sure I'll use it more intensive. Thanks a lot for installing it, maik!

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Re: Inconsistencies and the Wiki

Post by Amah » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:56 am

I was looking into the staer9 shipset recently (Iguana, mussurana etc...) and came upon some Elite A Page.

Ophidian yacht in the OOlite wiki has following stats:

Size (W×H×L) 40m×15m×65m
Cargo capacity 15 TC
Cargo bay extension
Maximum speed 0.360 LM
Manoeuvrability Roll: 2.2
Pitch: 1.4
Energy banks 3
Energy recharge rate
Gun mounts Fore, Aft
Missile slots
Shield boosters available Yes
Military shields available Yes
Hyperspace capable Yes
OXP or standard OXP
Available to player Yes
Base price 14,000 Cr

The Elite A version:
Price 147000cr
Space 24
Range 7ly
Speed 0.34LM
Manvre CF8
Lasers 1
Missiles 2

ok... about the prices: the oolite cobra seems to have 150000cr the acorn cobra costs 287000 cr.
The oolite anaconda 650000 Cr the acorn anaconda 18695000cr. So, oolite ships should be cheaper than the originals, but I think missiles, lasers and cargo should be the same, right?
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Re: Inconsistencies and the Wiki

Post by DeathKnyte » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:39 pm

Hiya,

Two things I noticed in the Oolite Instruction Manual (links).


#1: Fuel Scoops page (Path = Oolite Main Page - Oolite Instruction Manual - Oolite equipment - Fuel Scoops).

The section, Guide to 'Failsafe' Skimming, is in my experience, incorrect.

I have tried this method many times (Cobra Mk. III, and Boa Class Cruiser), and at a lot of different stars (has to be at least over 100). My ship will blow up often enough. The problem is that setting your sights on the horizon and cruising, as is suggested, is often times not enough for the fuel scoop to engage. Depending on the star, you have to penetrate to a lower altitude, before it will engage. Staying at the horizon, only works with certain starts (I can't tell which ones, but have now developed a feel for which are most likely), while at other ones it will engage at a higher altitude than the horizon.

The real trick, is to have both an external heat shield (almost mandatory for a new player), and witchdrive fuel injectors (not as important, but very useful).

- Program a hyper jump to the desired destination system.
- Head straight for the center of the star with the jump drive (use the external rear view to help line up a direct entry, with the help of the ship contours with the diameter of the sun, when close).
- Eventually you will be mass locked and fall to normal engine drive.
- Make sure you are going max speed (throttle up before the jump drive is best).
- Engage the witchdrive fuel injectors (the faster you are going when the scoop activates, the faster your tanks fill up, and the heat build up is over time - not distance from the star - so you want to minimize the time factor).
- As soon as the tanks start filling up past the point of your set jump indicator, hit the hyper drive (you have 15 seconds, no problem, the scoop still keeps working).
- All the while, try and keep your altitude indicator light out of the red zone (pull up 180 degrees if necessary).
- You can jump through witchspace wormhole, even when still barreling headlong at near light mach towards the center of the star.

That method, works for me all the time, failsafe, 100 percent, foolproof, etc.
:)

With no fuel injectors, and especially no external heat shield - refuel at the main station. I know it takes longer, but hey - better to take some time instead of starting over from your last save.

I feel the information in the wiki, should be altered to reflect this, as a new player seeing the word Failsafe just encourages them to try and do something that will eventually lead to disaster.



#2: Iron Ass page ( Path = Oolite Main Page - Oolite Instruction Manual - How To Deal With Pirates (section 2; Recognition, click on 'iron ass') - Iron Ass)

It says:

An 'iron ass' is a trade ship or fighter kitted out to be a battle ship. The traditional Iron Ass will be equipped with military lasers on all mountings, a full quota of missiles and all the defensive and offensive addons available on the market.

Iron Ass ships are generally flown by very experienced pilots, often ranking Dangerous or above.

Iron Ass ships are usually Imperial Couriers, Super Cobras or other added ships. These ships are sleek and maneuverable thus making them good choices for the supreme ship.


I don't think this is accurate, having read the history of Elite, and Oolite.

To me it has more to do with outfitting the Cobra Mk. III (the player starting ship) with all the bells and whistles available in the normal game.

As a new player, and this being linked from the Instruction Manual, it gives the impression that you can't fight effectively unless you have one of these super ships, and the experience that is supposedly required to pilot one.

In fact, when I read this, it prompted me to try something I never dared to do before - because I couldn't believe that the game was made to achieve this concept.
See the post linked here. http://aegidian.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f= ... 86#p181084

And I don't know what a super cobra or imperial courier could be, as it is not defined in the Oolite Refrence Sheet, which comes with the game. Obviously some oxp type of things, but again remember, I am talking about new players, which is who the instruction manual is trying to help.

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Re: Inconsistencies and the Wiki

Post by Cody » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:47 pm

DeathKnyte wrote:Iron Ass ships are usually Imperial Couriers, Super Cobras or other added ships.
You're right... that doesn't sound right at all.
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