Weapon Laws OXZ

Discussion and information relevant to creating special missions, new ships, skins etc.

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Cholmondely
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Cholmondely »

Thank you.

I've finally got it, and have been playing around with it. A believable addition to the Ooniverse. Thank you!

NB: It does not nobble the Vimana beam laser which comes with Gnievmir's VimanaHUD (15,000cr for a cool running military laser with slightly reduced range and seems to sell jolly well everywhere at every conceivable TL).
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:53 pm
Thank you1
You're welcome :)
Cholmondely wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:53 pm
NB: It does not nobble the Vimana beam laser which comes with Gnievmir's VimanaHUD (15,000cr for a cool running military laser with slightly reduced range and seems to sell jolly well everywhere at every conceivable TL).
That's why there's already a 1.89 version. This problem is much easier to fix with the new scripting options for equipment items.
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Cholmondely »

Here's another issue: I'm running v.1.88 on a Windows machine (with your older version of Weapon Laws). Started a new Jameson, sold the laser as I now usually do - and then realised that I'd made a big mistake - as buying a new one is no longer quite so simple!

Fair enough! All good and realistic.

But after having restarted, and then having made a bit of dosh - and whilst sitting prettily in Tionisla, I decided that I'd better move the front pulse laser to the aft (as that would make rather more sense).

I used the Laser Arrangement facility under the F4 ship-station interface. Do you know, the blighters in the chandlery jolly well nabbed it and would not give it back - either for my rear end - or anywhere else. No money back either! Luckily I had a recent save - but my new Jameson could hardly have afforded a 400cr loss!

I presume that this arises due to an infelicity of communication between Weapon Laws.oxp & Laser Arrangement.oxp - but alas, a mere denizen of Digebiti such as myself is quite incapable of sorting this one out. Just mentioning it in case you did not nobble it in your newer version of Weapon Laws.

__________________________________________________
Am I correct in presuming that the TL16 anarchy which has suddenly popped up is all yours? What is the backstory to it? Was it always an anarchy (populated by incredible technological individualists) - or was it a high TL system which has just become an anarchy?

And, just pondering on all this, as a fortunate subject of Her Most Britannic Majesty, I have noticed

(i) how restrictions on weapons have burgeoned with the increased level of technology. And, of course,

(ii) in the halcyon days of Feudal Paradise, only those of blue blood were allowed access to the better weapons. These developments are of course also evident on the other side of the channel, in Europe. But then

(iii) there is the peculiar case of the United States of America, where anyone can just sidle into a supermarket and stock up on machine guns.


It would seem that there ought to be a whole raft of exceptions and bizarre countercases spread throughout the eight galaxies! As the introduction on the Oolite website says:
The two thousand star systems of the Cooperative once enjoyed a golden age of peace and prosperity, and perhaps the wealthiest of them can still pretend to. The trade ships that once safely travelled between planets now have to be well armed and escorted to fend off pirate attacks, from small-time criminals desperate for their next meal, to powerful robber barons extracting tithes from everyone who passes through their space.

The Cooperative's police force, concentrated near a few influential planets, can no longer maintain order. The mercenaries they hire for a few credits a kill are too few, too unreliable to do so either. And in the darkness between the stars, an old enemy lurks, fearless, perhaps waiting for order to collapse entirely.
I do think that your .oxp adds a most welcome complexity to the Ooniverse. But is it complex enough? Just a thought!
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:58 pm
Here's another issue: I'm running v.1.88 on a Windows machine (with your older version of Weapon Laws).
Cholmondely wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:58 pm
I presume that this arises due to an infelicity of communication between Weapon Laws.oxp & Laser Arrangement.oxp
Without opening up the hood as it were, I'm pretty sure that's exactly the same as the old issue. Namely, that in 1.88 and earlier there are no simple equipment overrides that are target specific. Rather than just defining a new price for example, it is necessary to redefine everything, thereby playing havoc with any other oxp that changed any other aspect of the equipment.

The 1.89 version solves this problem (unless 2 oxps directly contradict each other by both redefining the same property).

Cholmondely wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:58 pm
Am I correct in presuming that the TL16 anarchy which has suddenly popped up is all yours?
Dont think so...

Cholmondely wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:58 pm
Fair enough! All good and realistic.
Cholmondely wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:58 pm
I do think that your .oxp adds a most welcome complexity to the Ooniverse. But is it complex enough? Just a thought!
For me, flavour always beats complexity in a game (unless it's a puzzle) but then everything is subject to taste of course.
There is however an important point here that may not be immediately obvious.

Whilst it's true that most of my oxps (and even source code changes) may appear to be employing game changes to promote realism, it's actually the other way around.

I didn't rescale oolite so that it could be more realistic, it dd it so that it could be more fun. I wanted to be able to hide large items in space, to get a sense of massive ships and tiny ships and generally of feeling small in a vast(ish) galaxy(or 8 ). I just used 'reality' as a guide and excuse to head in that direction: as a compass rather than a desired destination.

Likewise, with this oxp I've identified the problem as the best equipment being available (at least occasionaly) in the safest systems. I wanted to change that in order to rebalance risk and reward. I used just enough realism to justify that change because that change was all I needed to solve the problem (in my mind at least).

No accounting for inhabitants (maybe they specialise in different items), planet radius (maybe there could be gravity issues for some techs and their development), neighboring suppliers (with their own tech levels and trade influence), system star (could influence development of tech within societies), etc. etc. etc. All could be realistic but not all would be useful.

So you see, I had no problem with the lack of realism as such, rather I had a problem with it being too easy to fully equip your ship of choice. This oxp was/is my attempt to address that.
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Cholmondely »

Redspear wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:48 pm
Cholmondely wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:58 pm
Am I correct in presuming that the TL16 anarchy which has suddenly popped up is all yours?
Don't think so...
Sorry! Found it - Ascension (TL16 Anarchy) which was stuck into Galaxy 1 by Famous Planets.oxp.
http://www.aegidian.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20625

Redspear wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:48 pm
Without opening up the hood as it were, I'm pretty sure that's exactly the same as the old issue. Namely, that in 1.88 and earlier there are no simple equipment overrides that are target specific. Rather than just defining a new price for example, it is necessary to redefine everything, thereby playing havoc with any other oxp that changed any other aspect of the equipment.

The 1.89 version solves this problem (unless 2 oxps directly contradict each other by both redefining the same property).
Alas, I don't yet know enough to understand this, I'm afraid. Is there anything that explains it to the unlettered?


Cholmondeley


By the way, I just noticed your masterful response to Comrade Jameson Bond http://www.aegidian.org/bb/viewtopic.ph ... &start=898
Sir Cody of El Viejo (Bart), Portcullis Pursuivant of the Galactic College of Heralds has finally extirpated the blot on our family eschutcheon!
Cousin Digby, Duke of the Dismal Deserts, has granted him Officership of the Order of the Opulent Ooniverse.

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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by dybal »

Cholmondely wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:13 pm
Alas, I don't yet know enough to understand this, I'm afraid. Is there anything that explains it to the unlettered?
I will try...

[EliteWiki] equipment.plist is how an equipment is defined. If you look at it, each equipment definition is a set of properties. Some of those properties must be defined for every equipment, some have default values that are assumed if the property is not defined and some properties are meaningful only for some types of equipments, like weapon_info, for example.

There is one equipment.plist file in the core game defining the core game equipments, but any OXP can have one equipment.plist file defining its equipment.

[conjecture starts]
If the equipment.plist of two OXPs defined the same equipment, I guess the definition in the last one to be read would become the truth for that game session, and the definition in previous ones would be completely ignored... if you wanted to change one property in the definition of one equipment, you would have to create an equipment.plist in an OXP that redefined that equipment, copying _all_ previously defined properties and their values modifying the value of the ones you wanted to change and putting the original values for the others - any property you left out would have its default value, if any, or be undefined, and hope that your equipment.plist would be loaded after the original one.
[conjecture ends]

The thing is, once the core game has read them all (when loading a savefile) and populated its data structures, those definitions can't be changed anymore: some of them are visible to OXPs through the [EliteWiki] EquipmentInfo objects, but most properties there are read-only and can't be altered.

Oolite 1.89 introduced the [EliteWiki] equipment-overrides.plist file. Those files are loaded after all equipment.plist files are loaded and whatever is in them overwrites the original definitions, but only for the properties defined in them, the rest of the properties defined in the original equipment.plist definition remains unchanged and valid.

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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:13 pm
By the way, I just noticed your masterful response to Comrade Jameson Bond
A very kind assessment but thank you... I'd almost forgotten about that one, glad you liked it :)

dybal wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:53 pm
[conjecture starts]
...
[conjecture ends]
Essentially how I understand it. Thanks! :D

dybal wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:53 pm
Oolite 1.89 introduced the [EliteWiki] equipment-overrides.plist file. Those files are loaded after all equipment.plist files are loaded and whatever is in them overwrites the original definitions, but only for the properties defined in them, the rest of the properties defined in the original equipment.plist definition remains unchanged and valid.
Yep, and with a bunch of my oxps essentailly suffering from the same problem this was a very welcome addition from my point of view.
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Cholmondely »

Gentlemen, thank you! I'll have a bit of a ponder and may well come back to you.

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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by RockDoctor »

Cholmondely wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:13 pm
Found it - Ascension (TL16 Anarchy) which was stuck into Galaxy 1 by Famous Planets.oxp.
I quite like Ascension. I pick up some interestingly dodgy (viz: high paying, attracting lots of assassin attention) passengers there. One does wonder what the back story is though. TL16 and an Anarchy? Somebody hasn't been reading the "Technological Development for Utopia" handbook - or has been reading it as a guide to how to not do things.
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Cholmondely »

RockDoctor wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:07 am
Cholmondely wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:13 pm
Found it - Ascension (TL16 Anarchy) which was stuck into Galaxy 1 by Famous Planets.oxp.
I quite like Ascension. I pick up some interestingly dodgy (viz: high paying, attracting lots of assassin attention) passengers there. One does wonder what the back story is though. TL16 and an Anarchy? Somebody hasn't been reading the "Technological Development for Utopia" handbook - or has been reading it as a guide to how to not do things.
______________________________________________________________________________________

At a guess there are two very different back stories: one in which Ascension was always an anarchy - a highly unusual one, and the other where it only just became an anarchy a few months ago and has only just started losing its technological advantages.

Perhaps given this rousing quote from the Oolite site, the second is more likely:
The two thousand star systems of the Cooperative once enjoyed a golden age of peace and prosperity, and perhaps the wealthiest of them can still pretend to. The trade ships that once safely travelled between planets now have to be well armed and escorted to fend off pirate attacks, from small-time criminals desperate for their next meal, to powerful robber barons extracting tithes from everyone who passes through their space.

The Cooperative's police force, concentrated near a few influential planets, can no longer maintain order. The mercenaries they hire for a few credits a kill are too few, too unreliable to do so either. And in the darkness between the stars, an old enemy lurks, fearless, perhaps waiting for order to collapse entirely.
http://www.oolite.org/

Perhaps the fall of Ascension was one of the fulcra for the impending collapse of the Cooperative?
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Cholmondely »

Redspear wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:56 am
[GalCop doesn't want pirates flying around and it certainly doesn't want to be supplying them with weapons.
If a pilot wants anything fiercer than a mining laser then he, she or whomever is going to have to head somewhere a little out of the average Jameson's comfort zone in order to get it.

Generally speaking, the more dangerous the item, the more dangerous the system in which you'll find it for sale.
Tech level restrictions remain however and so some items will now be much rarer.

(edited list for v. 1.1)
  • Democracies
    ECM, shield boosters
  • Confederacies
    pulse lasers, military shield enhancement
  • Communist States
    missiles, multi-targeting system, target system memory expansion
  • Dictatorships
    beam lasers, scanner targeting enhancement
  • Multi-Governments
    military lasers, integrated targeting system
  • Feudal States
    ecm hardened missile, quirium cascade mine
  • Anarchies
    energy bomb :twisted: (...if installed :wink: )
...

To Do?:
Compatibility with other equipment altering oxps
Possibly add counterbalance whereby some equipment only available in safer systems
Incorporate relevant oxp equipment items
The following also need nobbling:
Laser Cooler
Fast Target Selector & it's burgeoning brood (Automatic Target Acquisition; Targeter/Target System Upgrade; Target Autolock Plus; Target System Plugins - SRS/TMI/TBM etc)
TFS (Vimana HUD's Target Filtering System)
SniperLock
LMSS
(Civilian Energy Grid? &) Naval Energy Grid
Ironhide Armour?
Combat MFD/Combat Module on Vimana HUD?
Shield Cycler
Shield Equalizer & Capacitors

I am firmly convinced that ILS also falls into this category due to its propensity to transmogrify my Cobras into kamikaze missiles.
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:24 am
The following also need nobbling:
Fair enough but they're all oxp additions (ones I don't currently use). Without swotting up on each of them or realising which ones any individual player regards as "essential" it would be easy to be somewhat Draconian. The difference this oxp makes to the core lasers and missiles alone is significant I think.

Furthermore, opening up the condition script file (within this oxp) reveals a very simple structure where the player can add, remove or recategorise equipment items as long as they know the items label (e.g. "EQ_ECM").

If you can do that then you can probably find the EQ labels for any items you've installed. If not then I'd be happy to explain and / or to add further annotation to a future release.

Does that follow?
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Cholmondely »

Redspear wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:13 am
Cholmondely wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:24 am
The following also need nobbling:
Fair enough but they're all oxp additions (ones I don't currently use). Without swotting up on each of them or realising which ones any individual player regards as "essential" it would be easy to be somewhat Draconian. The difference this oxp makes to the core lasers and missiles alone is significant I think.

Furthermore, opening up the condition script file (within this oxp) reveals a very simple structure where the player can add, remove or recategorise equipment items as long as they know the items label (e.g. "EQ_ECM").

If you can do that then you can probably find the EQ labels for any items you've installed. If not then I'd be happy to explain and / or to add further annotation to a future release.

Does that follow?
Fair dibs.

I'll have a bit of a ponder and come back to you with some recommendations and a logic. But, very bluntly, the change your little .oxp has made is more than a little draconian.But, just as bluntly, it makes excellent sense, and it adds a most welcome complexity. My new Jameson had to go through all sort of rigours just to get beam lasers! I now have to work out how to visit a very different - and dangerous - part of the Ooniverse to buy his Militaries and the STE. Definitely adding a whole new and dimension to my game - Thank You!

What about black markets in weapons? Rock Hermits for example? Or the very occasional non-main orbital station? Or the planetary surface? The Rock Hermit may have had a delivery of 2 military lasers (which they will sell at treble the price)? Or a Deep Sea Dredger may have just salvaged one from a space battle?
______________________________

Now all we have to do is to find a way of making the Species listings meaningful in game terms - as well as the population size & the GDP figures! I wonder if Stranger managed the last two?
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:50 am
Definitely adding a whole new and dimension to my game - Thank You!
That's what it's there for and you're welcome.

What about black markets in weapons? Rock Hermits for example? Or the very occasional non-main orbital station? Or the planetary surface? The Rock Hermit may have had a delivery of 2 military lasers (which they will sell at treble the price)? Or a Deep Sea Dredger may have just salvaged one from a space battle?
Exceptions are of course possible but once again there's a big oxp overlap with some of your suggestions. Besides, if your exception enables you to purchase item X in a safer system than you would otherwise then that defeats the object, even if it does cost you 4 times as much. Why? because more money in a safe trade route very quickly becomes a matter of time rather han a matter of risk. Your mileage may vary of course (esp with regards to ship flown) but it's a general 'rule' I'd rather not break.

Cholmondely wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:50 am
Now all we have to do is to find a way of making the Species listings meaningful in game terms - as well as the population size & the GDP figures!
Well, I've nearly done that... Station Variation was a work in progress that stalled when I got confused by scripting again (think I've got it now) but would make species relevant with regards goods, main station and also shipyard.

GDP is a reflection of economy I think (and therefore relevant to pricing) while population was/is to affect refit availability for equipment by ship class.

As you may have noticed by now, my ability to come up with new ideas far exceeds my programming ability in terms of both practice and (consequently) skill.
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Cholmondely »

So, if I may be so bold, how many different ideas are you currently working on?

Also, I' d rather like to put up a wiki page for Weapon Laws, if that is all right by you.

I'll also see about adding some content to your Additional Planets page, but I'm pretty hazy about it all - despite having used them before I started writing up Strangers World with which they conflict. What on earth is the difference between a Demux and a Remux? And where do those names come from, anyway?

I'd love to help if I could, but lacking the dark arts ...
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Cousin Digby, Duke of the Dismal Deserts, has granted him Officership of the Order of the Opulent Ooniverse.

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