Weapon Laws OXZ

Discussion and information relevant to creating special missions, new ships, skins etc.

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Redspear
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:40 am
So, if I may be so bold, how many different ideas are you currently working on?
Well, as usual, it depends on what you mean.
In terms of unrealised ideas rather than just simple updates...
  • Inhabitants influence (a la Station Variation)
  • Galaxy variation (discussed several times on this board in various different modes of thinking - e.g. shipyard and inhabitant variants)
  • Star system composition to better suit scale - rather than extra planets being either jarringly visible or realistically unnoticeable, restrict palette to gas giants and moons (prettier, more contrast with main planet, economical use of planet textures, suits inhabitant types not populating them)
  • A new ship-set with a retro-polygon basis - weighted to complement standard shipset rather than leave some ships in a class of their own (e.g. anaconda)
  • A new HUD (although Vimana HUD may have already achieved most of the things I was considering)
  • A new take on hyperdrives that makes the smaller (non-hyperspace capable) ships playable but with limited range
  • Whichever other crazy ones that have escaped me for now

Cholmondely wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:40 am
Also, I' d rather like to put up a wiki page for Weapon Laws, if that is all right by you.
Yeah, go ahead. Actually. I'd appreciate it - if there's anything amiss then I could always explain (or edit it myself).

Cholmondely wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:40 am
I'll also see about adding some content to your Additional Planets page, but I'm pretty hazy about it all - despite having used them before I started writing up Strangers World with which they conflict. What on earth is the difference between a Demux and a Remux? And where do those names come from, anyway?
The names come from adding cloud layers and effects to the previously existing System Redux and System Demux textures, the original idea of additional planets being to collate the existing planet texture sets post submersible's unique cubemapped textures for each main planet.

Better to hold fire on that one for now I think.

I must admit, I'm rather hazy on what many of Stranger's oxps effect and should probably try them out. My time with Oolite is mostly spent thinking up things that would have made my ten year old self very happy :)
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Cholmondely »

Redspear wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:14 pm
Cholmondely wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:40 am
Also, I' d rather like to put up a wiki page for Weapon Laws, if that is all right by you.
Yeah, go ahead. Actually. I'd appreciate it - if there's anything amiss then I could always explain (or edit it myself).
It's up. I want to hack it about a bit - stick in some blurb about how super it is, that sort of thing, fill in the details about 1.1/1.2/1.3 etc. The icons at the bottom are meaningless to me, I'm afraid, so you will need to use your hard earned years of experience to sort them out! Enjoy!!
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:05 pm
It's up.
Good job. Thanks! :)

Cholmondely wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:05 pm
I want to hack it about a bit - stick in some blurb about how super it is, that sort of thing,
Whilst I'll happily argue the relative merits of this or that I'm no salesman. As such I prefer simple honesty as to what it does and (sometimes) why it does it. I think as the wiki is a primarily a reference it should be as objective as possible.

If someone thinks it's 'super' then that's great, if not then don't install/uninstall and no harm is done. Praise and or criticism is best placed within this thread I think or perhaps via PM. My 'colorful' blurb at the beginning of this thread was purely to facilitate explanation by using an 'in game' occurrance.

I just make stuff I like and then share it. Keeps me busy :wink:
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Cholmondely »

Redspear wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:56 am
(edited list for v. 1.1)
  • Democracies
    ECM, shield boosters
  • Confederacies
    pulse lasers, military shield enhancement
  • Communist States
    missiles, multi-targeting system, target system memory expansion
  • Dictatorships
    beam lasers, scanner targeting enhancement
  • Multi-Governments
    military lasers, integrated targeting system
  • Feudal States
    ecm hardened missile, quirium cascade mine
  • Anarchies
    energy bomb :twisted: (...if installed :wink: )
Given that you placed regular Missiles in Communist States (because they are so destructive that they would destroy an entire ship in one fell swoop), should not Quirium Cascade Mines be illegal even in anarchies? Presumably they should only be for sale in black markets on the planet surface - or in rock hermits!

The thing is, the Orbital Stations are under the control of Galcop as far as I can make out. So apart from defensive stuff, maybe all armaments other than missiles and pulse/beam lasers should be unavailable in Galcop stations?

_______________________________________________

But, you know, with my lousy combat skills, the game has become much more interesting. Started in Lave. Did not dare sell laser/missiles to raise money as replacing them would be literally suicidal. Off to Zaonce, and then Isinor. Beetled backwards and forwards between Isinor and Tionisla while kitting out and managed to buy EEU & civilian Energy Grid (getting press space commandered just the once at Isinor when I was jumped and scragged by a posse of pirates).

On reincarnation, chased off another Isinorean pirate with a "rare as gold-dust" missile. And then, eventually, that scary, scary run to Qutiri to buy beam lasers and restock on missiles. Bought a bit more kit on the milk run and then down to Ensoreus to make my way south and north east to Biarge to stock up on Militaries and an STE. But when I got to Atriso I was jumped by pirates! I escaped all but one dastard who followed me on fuel injectors and clobbered me quite severely despite only having a pulse laser against my beams (I said my combat skills are lousy ... without sniperlock I'm as useless as a wombat). I eventually nailed him, but it was pretty jolly scary - he had more witchfuel than I had, needless to say! Fixing the damage & buying new missiles took most of my remaining dosh.

I limped back to Ensoreus and now plan on rejoining the Tionisla/Isinor milk run until I've saved enough to buy Shield Boosters and Repairbots. Then I hope to try it again!

The point is this: kitting out my Cobra has now become much more of an adventure in itself. I've never really used my missiles before either - although the Elgato StreamDeck has really helped making missile combat more fathomable (it's so much easier when the buttons actually tell you what they each do!).
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:29 am
Given that you placed regular Missiles in Communist States (because they are so destructive that they would destroy an entire ship in one fell swoop), should not Quirium Cascade Mines be illegal even in anarchies?
To my mind, no, and this is why:

Firstly, there's an important difference between 'illegal' and 'not for sale'. I doubt you'd have much luck trying to find adult videos in a toy shop for example (perhaps 'toy' wasn't the best word to use but I think you get my point...)

Secondly, the player typically starts with 3 missiles which are more useful than devastating. Main reason being that there is a fairly common and extremely effective defence against them: ECM. Not so with the cascade mine.

Thirdly, if I I'm going to be more 'realistic' about it then why would a corporate system allow an unregistered military spec'd ship to dock at any of its stations? They already allow fugitives, subject to a fine. Why wouldn't they insist on confiscating your mines for example, for the safety of their clientele?

So these items are not illegal, they're just not for sale. Regarded with suspicion but not obviously discriminated against, the player can go about their business. This is very important from a gameplay perspective.

Again, I'm leaning on realism for my explanations but given that any attempt at a realistic model is conjectural, I'm happy to pick the one that is the most convenient and reason from there. For example, perhaps GalCop space has become so dangerous in recent times that well equipped ships are tolerated because they tend to carry more valuable cargo, to deliver it with a greater degree of success and to spend greater sums of money at the station.

If I can image a way in which it might be possible then that's enough for me. The oxp can be tweaked to make it more or less harsh, according to taste.
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by dybal »

How does, if at all, Weapon Laws OXP integrate/coexist with New Lasers OXP?

In my Ooniverse NPCs' EEU and NEU work, making Beam laser almost ineffective against a well-kitted NPC, and New Lasers have several very useful alternatives.

BTW, Famous Planets OXP changes the description of many of the target planets for the Uber lasers in New Lasers, messing up their planned availability.

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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by RockDoctor »

Redspear wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:14 pm
  • Star system composition to better suit scale - rather than extra planets being either jarringly visible or realistically unnoticeable, restrict palette to gas giants and moons (prettier, more contrast with main planet, economical use of planet textures, suits inhabitant types not populating them)
Hmmm. Playing "Find the ..." is a sub-sport which I'm familiar with. Before going caving, one must find the cave. Before going mountaineering, one must find the mountain (which is not always trivial - it took Tilman and Shipton over 2 months to find the bottom of Nanda Devi, despite being able to see the top!). Before going to planet Z, one must find Z.
I'm going to have to check ("prep the jolly old Cobra for launch, Jeeves!"), but do the planets of the Ooniverse actually stick closely to one plane (the plane of the principle angular momentum of the pre-stellar), as the Solar system (less Pluto) does, as a number of the multi-planet stellar systems discovered by the Kepler, K2 and TESS missions do, and as there are good theoretical reasons to expect? Because if they do, then they'll also be orbiting in the plane of the "Zodiacal Light" - which is a faint band of light which follows the ecliptic (the plane of the planets around their star). It's formed by reflection from grains of dust dispersed from comets, asteroid-on asteroid (or mining, indeed) action. So really, if we're expected to put up with that damned glare from the star, we ought to have that guide to where the planets are most likely to be.
I've been trying to work out how the first probes into the Alpha Centauri system (including Proxima) are going to map the system, given a mass budget of a few tenths of a gram and a communication rate with home of a few bits per year. It probably shows.
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Redspear »

dybal wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:53 pm
How does, if at all, Weapon Laws OXP integrate/coexist with New Lasers OXP?
Ah yes, well that's a little more complicated...

Although this oxp no longer needs to completely overwrite equipment items it does need to overwrite their condition scripts. As New Lasers also changes the condition script and (correct me if I'm wrong) you can't easily overwrite a single entry in within a script array via equipment-overrides.plist, then one is left with an either or situation. Result: they mostly dont interfere with each other.

dybal wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:53 pm
BTW, Famous Planets OXP changes the description of many of the target planets for the Uber lasers in New Lasers, messing up their planned availability.
Yes that would change things but I don't think (from memory) it would likely make any laser unobtainable. 'Famous' Planets suggests a relatively small number to my mind... I'd have thought.

RockDoctor wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:25 pm
Hmmm. Playing "Find the ..." is a sub-sport which I'm familiar with. Before going caving, one must find the cave. Before going mountaineering, one must find the mountain (which is not always trivial - it took Tilman and Shipton over 2 months to find the bottom of Nanda Devi, despite being able to see the top!).
Well if we're still talking about the idea in my head then it's a simple visual fudge. Planets are too big to stick all over the place without being remined how unnervingly close they are - once they're even a remotely unjarring distance from the main planet then they may as well not be there as they're all but invisible. Instead, if the only other planets in the system were gas giants then the problem is reduced
  • they're believably bigger and so can add scenery at greater distance
  • they generally provide 'better' scenery at great distance (simple colour layers)
  • there's a logical reason why they might be uninhabited (relative to inhabitant types within game)
  • they can still have moons (more interesting scene to look at and easier to create believable looking moons when they are orbiting a potentially much bigger body that the typical main planet)
  • after going to the trouble of visiting one the player at least feels it's something visually unusual (bigger and very different texture)

RockDoctor wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:25 pm
Before going to planet Z, one must find Z.
In this instance, analogous to "planet Z" would be a moon orbiting a gas giant, wheres the other Z that "one must find" first would be the gas giant itself: big enough to be visble from almost anywhere in system wheras the moon would not be.

I think that the rest of your post was more about Oolite itself?
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by dybal »

Redspear wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:06 pm
dybal wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:53 pm
How does, if at all, Weapon Laws OXP integrate/coexist with New Lasers OXP?
Ah yes, well that's a little more complicated...

Although this oxp no longer needs to completely overwrite equipment items it does need to overwrite their condition scripts. As New Lasers also changes the condition script and (correct me if I'm wrong) you can't easily overwrite a single entry in within a script array via equipment-overrides.plist, then one is left with an either or situation. Result: they mostly dont interfere with each other.
It pre-dates the existence of equipment-overrides.plist. It just re-defines, in equipment.plist, with the same values as far as I checked (except for Mining and Military lasers, where it does change the condition script), the core game weapons and introduces new ones, of course - I don't know if any of the new ones are redefinitions of weapons introduced by other OXPs though...

Redspear wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:06 pm
dybal wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:53 pm
BTW, Famous Planets OXP changes the description of many of the target planets for the Uber lasers in New Lasers, messing up their planned availability.
Yes that would change things but I don't think (from memory) it would likely make any laser unobtainable. 'Famous' Planets suggests a relatively small number to my mind... I'd have thought.
Some of them became unavailable on G1 (the RimmerAce ImpasseResolver comes to mind)

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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Redspear »

dybal wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:06 pm
It pre-dates the existence of equipment-overrides.plist
Correct. So weapon laws (loading last due to naming convention???) may overwrite the core weapons but the others should appear as intended.

dybal wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:06 pm
Some of them became unavailable on G1 (the RimmerAce ImpasseResolver comes to mind)
I see that youre a connoisseur of the finer vessel armaments :wink:
Well that one's worth an inter-galactic journey don't you think!?
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Cholmondely »

Just a minor niggle:
Cholmondely wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:50 am
What about black markets in weapons? Rock Hermits for example? Or the very occasional non-main orbital station? Or the planetary surface? The Rock Hermit may have had a delivery of 2 military lasers (which they will sell at treble the price)? Or a Deep Sea Dredger may have just salvaged one from a space battle?
Redspear wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:40 am
Exceptions are of course possible but once again there's a big oxp overlap with some of your suggestions. Besides, if your exception enables you to purchase item X in a safer system than you would otherwise then that defeats the object, even if it does cost you 4 times as much. Why? because more money in a safe trade route very quickly becomes a matter of time rather han a matter of risk. Your mileage may vary of course (esp with regards to ship flown) but it's a general 'rule' I'd rather not break.
But would that be true for a pirate cove? Especially one of UK_Eliters more muscular ones:
UK_Eliter wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:53 am
I have uploaded to the Oolite repository my little 'Harder Hermits' expansion pack. It toughens up some rock hermits - or, toughens them further (but not stupidly so) if some other pack already makes them harder...

There you have the combination of increased risk and increased cost!
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Cholmondely »

So much for the minor niggle!

Now for a list of items to ban!!
Redspear wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:56 am
(edited list for v. 1.1)
  • Democracies
    ECM, shield boosters
  • Confederacies
    pulse lasers, military shield enhancement
  • Communist States
    missiles, multi-targeting system, target system memory expansion
  • Dictatorships
    beam lasers, scanner targeting enhancement
  • Multi-Governments
    military lasers, integrated targeting system
  • Feudal States
    ecm hardened missile, quirium cascade mine
  • Anarchies
    energy bomb :twisted: (...if installed :wink: )
So there seem to be two considerations with regards assigning Gubernatorial Availability for each item.
  • Logic
  • Playability
Presumably playability will trump logic when logic leads the train into the buffers at the end of the railway track!

We have three logics so far:
  • Premise 1) There will be restricted sales of weapons where they are not needed. (But Weapon Laws implies that they are laws. In toy shops you don't want to turn customers away - you will lose out by selling adult magazines. I don't see how the Shipyard in the Dodo in Zaonce loses out by not selling Military Lasers to their well-heeled clientele. Surely it must be a law!)
  • Premise 2) Some weapons are so dangerous (missiles) that they will be more restricted than might seem obvious.
  • Premise 3) Since weapons are simply not for sale rather than illegal, quirium cascade mines are available in the Galcop-controlled shipyards in feudal orbital stations.
You can see that I'm not happy with (1) & (3), but nevermind. I can live with the Quirium Cascade mines as I can't see myself ever buying one!

So, sticking to what I know a little about, here is a list of new goodies to ban - with a little extra-added logic!
  • Laser Cooler: same as Beam Laser? (Dictatorship - or same as Military Laser - Multi Gov?)
  • Fast Target Selector & it's burgeoning brood (Automatic Target Acquisition; Targeter/Target System Upgrade; Target Autolock Plus; Target System Plugins - SRS/TMI/TBM etc) Multi Gov? - but the more simple FTS in Dictatorships - good for helping target scoopables (splinters etc?)
  • TFS (Vimana HUD's Target Filtering System) as immediately above
  • Auto-Crosshairs - with Pulse Laser (Confederacy) or with Beam laser (Dictatorship)
  • Targeting Reticule - with Pulse Laser (Confederacy) or with Beam laser (Dictatorship)
  • SniperLock - with Military Laser? (Multi-Gov)
  • LMSS - with Beam Laser (Dictatorship) - allows use of Mining laser on same mount
  • Combat MFD/Combat Module on Vimana HUD? Dictatorship?
  • Civilian Energy Grid - same as EEU (not banned)
  • Naval Energy Grid - Anarchies?
  • Ironhide Armour? Democracy : Military Ironhide in Communist?
  • Shield Cycler Democracy?
  • Shield Equalizer & Capacitors Democracy?
  • Armour/Shields are also useful for docking mistakes & bumping into asteroids - so maybe they should be allowable even in Corporate States?
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:10 pm
But would that be true for a pirate cove? Especially one of UK_Eliters more muscular ones:
As I think I said earlier, where it's relating to another oxp (either new equipment item or dockable entity) then it's a consideration for the future, not something I have decided for certain that I must do. I accept that there is a rationale for the changes that you suggest but in no way do I see it as the only such rationale.

Cholmondely wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:43 pm
Presumably playability will trump logic when logic leads the train into the buffers at the end of the railway track!
And even before it does so.

Do you see that not only can logic shape the gameplay but gameplay can shape the logic?
I'm asking myself where I want to get to and then 'reverse engineering' as to how I might have got there by logical means.
This does not require me to abandon logic in order to achieve my aims. It simply requires the chain of thought of:

1. What do I want.
2. How could that set of circumstances logically come about.

This is science fiction, right? We've got quite a lot of room for manoeuvre I think...

Before I saw this post I was about to reply to your new thread on metafiction with an opinion on how it can be easy to get in unnecessary logic tangles due to accepting some things as immutably true when that need not be the case. Conventional logic allows for exceptions I think, provided those exceptions aren't contradictions. An example to come in in your own thread if I get round to it...

Cholmondely wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:43 pm
We have three logics so far:

Premise 1) There will be restricted sales of weapons where they are not needed. (But Weapon Laws implies that they are laws. In toy shops you don't want to turn customers away - you will lose out by selling adult magazines. I don't see how the Shipyard in the Dodo in Zaonce loses out by not selling Military Lasers to their well-heeled clientele. Surely it must be a law!)
Premise 2) Some weapons are so dangerous (missiles) that they will be more restricted than might seem obvious.
Premise 3) Since weapons are simply not for sale rather than illegal, quirium cascade mines are available in the Galcop-controlled shipyards in feudal orbital stations.

You can see that I'm not happy with (1) & (3), but nevermind. I can live with the Quirium Cascade mines as I can't see myself ever buying one!
I think that your frustration is likely a consequence of your assumptions.
Correct me if I'm wrong here...
  • Some goods have licensing laws, right? Where the law applies to the seller and not (necessarily) to the buyer. Explicitly: the item does not need to be illegal in order for its sale to be so. Example: I could legally fill my abode with alcohol but that gives me no legal right to sell it to all and sundry.
  • Laws are simply laws, the extent to which they are fair or proportionate is a matter of debate and varies enormously. Gameplay excuse: I needed each 'upgrade' in government type to make a significant difference, especially for the more dangerous types.
  • GalCop is not the government of the planet but of the 'galaxies'. Compare the United Nations to any of it's member states. It can put pressure on them, it can encourage sanctions but it cant rule them.
    From the original Elite manual...
    A CORIOLIS SPACE STATION
    Every world registered with the Galactic Co-operative has several Coriolis space stations in orbit at various altitudes. Coriolis stations are "neutral" territory, controlled equally by GalCop and the Planetary Government.
I don't see how my explanations are necessarily illogical. Rather, I think it's your misunderstanding of them that makes them appear so.

Cholmondely wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:43 pm
So, sticking to what I know a little about, here is a list of new goodies to ban - with a little extra-added logic!
If I ever do decide to apply these laws to oxp items (which I might), then this list could be a useful starting point.

As for the logic, I'll try to explain again, even if it's already clear (because it seems I keep overestimating my ability to make it so...)
  • In order for it to be logical it only requires that it can be reasoned to work as it does, not that it 'makes sense' to anyone in particular.
  • Given the fictional nature of the environment in which the oxp exists (i.e. the game itself) and that the oxp itself asserts an assumption (that these laws exist and are applied to varying degrees - thus governmental differences) then it becomes possible to imagine many ways in which such a new element (i.e. the oxp itself) might change things, or equally, might not.
  • The logic need only be applied to the extent that it is useful - that's not the same as rejecting it once it's served its purpose but rather of not extrapolating further than is necessary (with the logical idea that the farther we extraoplate, the less reliable any line of reasoning becomes).
  • With it being my oxp I've applied my reasoning to make it work as it does and crucially to compliment the manner it which it would affect gameplay most desirably IMHO.
  • Being aware that there were both other ways to imagine such an idea and ways in which it could be extended, I kept it simple and made it relatively easy to expand and alter as the user might wish.

Any questions? :wink:
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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by dybal »

The condition script in Weapons Laws OXP mentions EQ_WEAPON_IPULSE_LASER and EQ_WEAPON_IBEAM_LASER.

I guess there's a typo there: the Ingram lasers (core game) would be EQ_WEAPON_PULSE_LASER and EQ_WEAPON_BEAM_LASER, and the Ergon lasers (New Lasers OXP, but since that OXP re-defines everything they might have been created in another previous OXP) are EQ_WEAPON_EPULSE_LASER and EQ_WEAPON_EBEAM_LASER.

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Re: Weapon Laws OXZ

Post by Redspear »

dybal wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:20 pm
I guess there's a typo there: the Ingram lasers (core game) would be EQ_WEAPON_PULSE_LASER and EQ_WEAPON_BEAM_LASER, and the Ergon lasers (New Lasers OXP, but since that OXP re-defines everything they might have been created in another previous OXP) are EQ_WEAPON_EPULSE_LASER and EQ_WEAPON_EBEAM_LASER.
It's confusing I admit but I think they're actually in there for compatibility with my laser combat reimagined oxp rather than (also mine) the new lasers oxp.

Without knowing the download figures (or even how many who downloaded actually use them), it seems that new lasers gets a lot more use than the newer LCR and so I may have painted myself into someting of a corner with regards how to have them all coexist (or not).

So not a typo I dont think but I do appreciate the report. Thanks.
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