Tionisla Orbital Graveyard

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Tionisla Orbital Graveyard

Post by Selezen » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:28 am

Could this be included in Oolite? It's mentioned in The Dark Wheel, and in the manual, I believe, and would be a fairly interesting place to visit.

I've imagined as follows:

A small station in Tionisla orbit (maybe coriolis) in the centre of a circle of dead starships. It looks like a miniature version of Saturn, and ships with clearance can dock at the station after taking the scenic route through the graveyard. Tombs, ships and stasis coffins can be seen in this floating mausoleum. Those with ships small enough can, for a small fee, take a trip through the field (watched by tracking cams from the station) and see the tombs close-up, including the so-called 'circle of Elite': an impressive display of the tombs of Elite pilots.

The station itself is fairly ordered and respectful, but there are some fringe elements that should not be investigated too closely...the station has to make money somehow...

There could be some mission opportunities, maybe the odd theft of a tomb (like in Dark Wheel) some incidents and so on.

Whaddaya think?

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Post by aegidian » Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:00 am

Shouldn't be too hard for a modder to do, in fact it'd be a great idea for a modding competition. Who'd be up for that?
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Post by Murgh » Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:54 pm

if I weren't in the third world doing third world stuff, I'd rush to the challenge. man, I envy you lot with your resources.

seems like sweet Oolite times.

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Post by jonnycuba » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:09 pm

Murgh,

I think you need to update your profile...;)
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Post by Rxke » Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:23 am

The only problem I see is that the description is so good, it will probably be a huge disappointment when implemented in-game...

bit like the film after the book thing... The book always seems better, sigh.

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Post by goat » Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:44 am

Writers have bigger SFX budgets than directors.
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Post by Selezen » Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:14 pm

Well, simple it down a bit, maybe...just the station and some dead ships...

Could be a nice opportunity to design some older ships for the graveyard, though.

What does the Asp Mk I look like, for example... :)

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Post by Cmdr. Wombat » Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:56 pm

Does the Tionisla system already exist in the Ooniverse, and if so, in which galaxy?
It is generally inadvisable to eject over the target you just bombed.

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Post by tgape » Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:55 am

Cmdr. Wombat wrote:Does the Tionisla system already exist in the Ooniverse, and if so, in which galaxy?
Galaxy 9.

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Post by Selezen » Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:08 pm

It was in Galaxy 1 in the original versions...quite near Lave...

Has that all changed?

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Post by aegidian » Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:03 pm

Here you are:
Image
"The planet Rear is scourged by well-intentioned OXZs."

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Post by Rxke » Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:40 am

Hmmm... there has been some discussion going on in a wrong thread, so I'll copy/ paste it here. sorry for the layout...


Arexack Heretic

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:18 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Heh,
I havn't got a Mac either, but plenty of time unfortunately.

I don't think I will try the graveyard, It sounds like fun and I don't want to rob you of the honour. Wink
Actually, I already have too many Oomodels going.

I think unfinished ships would do with a simple grey or bronze skin, Perhaps a good time to use all those pipes and industrial-thingamajig pictures to good use. I'll try to design the ships worked open, starting from the basic material Aegidian has kindly provided. (They will be more work than a normal useable ship)


Congratulations all of you joining in wedlock.

edit: So how big is a station?
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Selezen

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:41 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Station is 1KM in diameter.

Regarding the graveyard: you wouldn't be robbing me of the honour - there's no way I will have the time or coding ability to do it. I would just really like to see it!

Arexack_Heretic

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:21 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Good, then I wont have to resize my first station.

How about the dodec station? Isn't that 'un supposed to be larger?

I won't go into building the graveyard, sounds like a lot of plisting and stuff.
I will however do a few battered hulks, maybe even derelict ships.
This is fairly simple to do: just take a standard ship, add a few more vertices and dent/twist the thing around. Smile

The crystal monolith sounds easy to make in Wings (if transparent skins are possible?)
Someone else can then take the raw objects and put them in a coordinates grid around the station (or between the sun and the planet).

Rxke

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:44 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
Arexack, would you see a cooperation of sorts?

I'm totally not into modelling, as you are, but feel pretty confident I could build the graveyard when someone gives me some nice shapes to play with.
And I've got time. Exams finished and all...

Star Gazer

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:04 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Arexack_Heretic wrote:
Congratulations all of you joining in wedlock.

mmm... that could easily be misunderstood to bring a whole new meaning to 'extended family'... Laughing Laughing ... the Oofamily...??...

Selezen

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:14 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Arexack_Heretic wrote:
How about the dodec station? Isn't that 'un supposed to be larger?

The overall diameter is still 1K, but the internal volume is higher due to the way the facets fit together - the station has more facets and is thus rounder in cross section.

Rxke wrote:
Arexack, would you see a cooperation of sorts?

I'm totally not into modelling, as you are, but feel pretty confident I could build the graveyard when someone gives me some nice shapes to play with.
And I've got time. Exams finished and all...

I like the sound of this... Very Happy I had a look around the forums for a tutorial on making addons, but couldn't find one. Is there one available anywhere? If it isn't too hard, I might be able to stick some objects together into a mod if someone can supply the models.

Arexack_Heretic

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:34 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Stargazer: lol


I'd be happy to model some stuff / Cooperation sound good to me.

What modelling/meshing prog do you employ? Wings3d would be most fortuitous, as I am working with this now.
I'll post stuff in the yahoogroup.


Anyhow; to model is really simple in wings3D, you should all try it, it's fun. Very Happy
Eventhough the windows version doesn't support PNG or the model-format Aegidian posted the (correctscale) shiplist in.

I already have a busted-up_Adder-model, actually my second project, after the transporter with added detail. Smile But I think it needs simplification (taking off some of the raised repairplating, as these can be easily done in textures).

Rxke

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:31 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
Quote:
I had a look around the forums for a tutorial on making addons, but couldn't find one. Is there one available anywhere? .


There's no real tutorial, but it's quite simple if you're prepared to do some experimenting. Best way to start off is to do the missions and then look into the package how it was done Oh, and bother everyone with silly questions, heehee.
Anyhow, that's the way I did it. just do a ripp-off from an existing mission, for starters, i;e; only change some names here and there, then as you feel more comfortable, undertake some adding together from yet other missions etc etc...
Quote:
If it isn't too hard, I might be able to stick some objects together into a mod if someone can supply the models

I'm not sure I follow your drift here... But that's probably my Engrish. Not knowing you mean objects as in programming stuff or ... You mean make one metamodel from different smaller model, or... ??

Quote:
What modelling/meshing prog do you employ?
I'll post stuff in the yahoogroup.


Errr... none. Never tried. that's why i asked you: you (and probably others, see later...) are the modeler, the one that makes the nice shapes, I humbly glue them together into a missionpack...
(Thoug I'd probably have a go at Wings to look at the supplied models)

BTW guys, what about an-on going project here?

start out with a fairly basic graveyard, but as time goes by, it gets updated, people add their *personal* monuments... Starting with Giles, of course, as the biggest, central monument, then add other peoples' names, designs... Maybe everyone who added stuff to Oolite gets a personalized monument, I'm thinking about Winston, dajt (PC/Linux porters, so big monument) 8bitapocalypse, Murgh, Cmdr. Wombat etc. etc. (modeling, ) Darkbee (refsheet) and so on.

This would be a nice way to coerce/lure people into contributing missions and stuff to Oolite... Very Happy

Not sure if this is feasible, might be too big of a drain on the engine? (my old G3 regularly goes down to 4fps when there are too much things going on...)

Arexack_Heretic

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:38 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Drat!


Now that I rescaled my dodo-shipyard, the look is all wrong.
It looks like a shipyard for spacedredgers!
I'll have to rethink the design.

I'll do a specialised smaller station, not based on either of the classic ones.
Someone else will have to do the programming ok?
(docking port, ships underconstruction present, lights, that stuff)

Selezen

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:55 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Rxke wrote:
There's no real tutorial, but it's quite simple if you're prepared to do some experimenting. Best way to start off is to do the missions and then look into the package how it was done Oh, and bother everyone with silly questions, heehee.
Anyhow, that's the way I did it. just do a ripp-off from an existing mission, for starters, i;e; only change some names here and there, then as you feel more comfortable, undertake some adding together from yet other missions etc etc...

Sounds easy enough. The only problem I have is that I don't have access to a Mac or Linux machine, and I'm not sure if the PC version is stable enough to run missions yet? Also, does the PC version allow addons?

Rxke wrote:
I'm not sure I follow your drift here... But that's probably my Engrish. Not knowing you mean objects as in programming stuff or ... You mean make one metamodel from different smaller model, or... ??

I meant ship models. I'm quite happy to put the code together for a mod if others can supply ship or space object models (like buoys, monuments etc). Also, if examples of textures can be forwarded I can do some new textures (again maybe with a little help, but Arexack_Heretic's topic on texturing has loads of useful info in it).

My main problem with this sort of thing is time - family and such keeps me kinda busy, so I wouldn't be able to sit for hours designing ships and so on.

Rxke wrote:
BTW guys, what about an-on going project here?

start out with a fairly basic graveyard, but as time goes by, it gets updated, people add their *personal* monuments... Starting with Giles, of course, as the biggest, central monument, then add other peoples' names, designs... Maybe everyone who added stuff to Oolite gets a personalized monument, I'm thinking about Winston, dajt (PC/Linux porters, so big monument) 8bitapocalypse, Murgh, Cmdr. Wombat etc. etc. (modeling, ) Darkbee (refsheet) and so on.

I love this idea!!

I had a basic idea of what the graveyard would comprise of, put together for a story I was working on.

Hang on... <goes scrabbling through old archived stuff on memory stick>

Here:

This shows the relative positions of all the objects. C1 through C4 are the coriolis stations around the system (obviously only C1 is in Oolite). The Graveyard (G) orbits marginally slower than the stations, but this physical anomaly can be overlooked in Oolite.


This shaws an example layout of the graveyard. The red dots are perimeter bouys. The white circles are graves. Graves can be anything from a simple headstone to a full tomb. A good many of them are derelict ships with some sort of monument attached. Each grave marker has a marker bouy attached. The central station (maybe not even as big as a coriolis) is where the graveyard's maintenance crew are based. They use modified Worm class landers to patrol the yard.

The actual layout of the graves is open to interpretation, obviously...

I love the idea of the development team getting custom graves. I think there should be a decent number of existing graves too though - The graveyard should be pretty well populated.

Arexack_Heretic


PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:00 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Commander Jameson should have a nice tomb.

Selezen

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:16 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Examples of tombs/monuments that I just thought up:

As Arexack says, Commander Jameson. Cobra 3 sitting atop a monument that looks oddly like a BBC Model B computer...

Commander Braben: small tomb, Derelict Cobra 3 with graffiti all over it.

Commander Bell: moderately sized tomb, topped with Cobra 3 decorated with fractal paintwork.

Commander Pinder: Monument depicting Fer-de-Lance reg TNK01 being chased by two Vipers and a Cobra 3 with graffiti all over it.

Commodore Monty: Monument shaped like a Python.

Commander Aegidian: Monument depicting the Oolite logo, and the epitaph "But I'm not dead yet"

Commander Break: small monument attached to a derelict Cobra Mk1 (for the sake of variety) with a painting of a troll being devoured. Wink

Various Oolite relevant tombs/monuments for Oolite developers or forum members would be up to them, really!

Anyway...

I've been looking through the OXPs from Oosat. It looks like it could be quite simple to do the graveyard. I take it that it's primarily a matter of creating a script.plist file that contains the location and parameters of the objects described in shipdata.plist. All the necessary models and textures to be included in the relevant folders in the OXP with the names as assigned in shipdata.plist?

Can shipdata.plist contain more than one ship definition? eg:

Code:
<dict>
<key>tgrave_monument</key>
<dict>
<blah blah blah>
</dict>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>tgrave_tomb</key>
<dict>
<blah blah blah>
</dict>
</dict>

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Post by Rxke » Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:46 am

(continued)

Rxke

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:17 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
Selezen, Ilike your pics, but had to really LOL when thinking about my old G3 doing a meltdown-simulation when trying to render all that stuff! Laughing

and inded, programming that pattern wouldn't be hard at all (a bit tedious probably, hammering out all the coordinates, but quite straightforward.)

and shipdata.plist can contain a list, so that's no problem.

Arexack_Heretic

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:21 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Carefull! Not to take sides in the Braben/Bell debacle.
Either may behave like a twit, but they be still the Creators, so insulting them might get you sent to hell (and back).

A monument of 2 Cobras, dog-fighting above(around) the classical Elite-Logo.
One with DB the other with IB stencilled on them.

(I saw a list once, with whom designed which ships.....there!
Ian Bell:
Adder, Anaconda, Asp, Boa, Boulder,Cobra I,
Cougar,Fer-de-Lance,Gecko, Krait, Moray,
Orbit shuttle, Tharglet, Transporter,
Worm,Dodecahedral Station
David Braben:
Asteroid, Cobra III, Constrictor, Mamba,
Missile,Python, Sidewinder, Thargoid,
Viper,Coriolis Station )
Though as this is from IB's site Braben will probably dispute this...

Selezen

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:31 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Rxke wrote:
Selezen, Ilike your pics, but had to really LOL when thinking about my old G3 doing a meltdown-simulation when trying to render all that stuff! Laughing

and inded, programming that pattern wouldn't be hard at all (a bit tedious probably, hammering out all the coordinates, but quite straightforward.)

and shipdata.plist can contain a list, so that's no problem.

Cool...in that case I will endeavour to find the time to hack it out. I may need to learn XML first! Wink

Maybe it would be best to keep the poly count low. Maybe making the monuments quite far distanced apart might be best. Or have a high spec and low spec version.

Hmm...

Rxke

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:37 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
Selezen wrote:
I may need to learn XML first! Wink

Maybe it would be best to keep the poly count low. Maybe making the monuments quite far distanced apart might be best. Or have a high spec and low spec version.

Hmm...


No need to learn XML, I didn't, just looking at the OXP's innards teaches you enough, just delete some stuff, and add your own stuff in, then test...

And no need for a low spec, either, Oolite has minimum of 4FPS, so things would go sllloooowww, but, hey, it's a graveyard, no need running around like a fool!



(EDIT:) keepin polycounts low might be a good idea, irregardless to systemspecs, there will be lots of objects, so ...

Rxke

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:42 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
I'm going to hack an addon together, (now) with a 'scaffold' of objects (probably 'dead' cobra's or dodeca's, they're bigger...) in the pattern you described, upload it to the modelgroup, (yahoo) then, when models come in, it's just a case of inserting them at the right places.

Disclaimer: my mathskills are a bit errr... chaotic, this could take some time... I'll let you know when it's available.

Rxke

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:48 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
Oops, selezen, did you actually distribute the monuments using some sort of algorythm, or are they random? (then i could calc the places, just enter the numbers...)

Ahruman

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:49 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Hmm... maybe this will prod Giles into spending some time on hierarchical collision detection or space partitioning, and a more advanced level-of-detail scheme. :-)

Selezen

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:12 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Rxke wrote:
Oops, selezen, did you actually distribute the monuments using some sort of algorythm, or are they random? (then i could calc the places, just enter the numbers...)

Nah - the diagram was just generated by my using copy and paste and moving the mouse!

No fancy algorithms - the only prerequisite is that each monument needs to have enough room for smallish ships to maneouver around it.

The only essential items are the station and the perimeter bouys. Monuments can be added to that skeleton as and when people come up with them then... Very Happy

Rxke

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:30 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
hmmmm... Did some very rough graveyard lookalike stuff (essentially just taking Dajt's monument, and placing 250-500 copies of it halfway between witchpointbeacon and planet.

Looks quite ok, but as I feared, my machine reverts to 4FPS whenever I use more than say 80 objects..., but in fact, it starts only to look good with about 4-500 objects, and then it really crawls and does other weird stuff...

Sooo... preliminary conclusion... 250 objects looks underwhelming, 500 looks impressive, but it's a very heavy burden on the engine...

Rxke

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:51 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
I posted some pics at the shop to give you an idea whayt it looks like. Should I upload the OXP too?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spaceshipshop/ under photo's

Selezen

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:31 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
It looks cool!!

It might be an idea to limit the initial load to a hundred or so, maybe even 50. That leaves some breathing room for expansion later.

Could I have a copy of the OXP?

Rxke

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:15 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
yeah, well... I tried 50-100 objects, it just does not look impressive enough...

You might think that's because of the Monument not being that big, but it's really the number of objects that give you (or not,) an impression of 'vastness'

I'll put up the OXP too, but read the disclaimer (it's just a hack, to get an impression)

Rxke

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:53 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
at the groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spaceship ... r%20stuff/

(maybe we start a new theread, we're hijacking this one...)

Selezen

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:13 am Post subject: Reply with quote
It's amazing how much you can do with so little code in Oolite!

Giles, I take my hat off to you.

Question though. If I wanted to add a Coriolis somewhere near the centre of the yard, how would I do this?

I assume that it has something to do with the 'checkforships' routine.

I would thus assume that the following code might work:

Code:
"graveStation" = (
{
conditions = (
"status_string equal STATUS_LAUNCHING",
"galaxy_number equal 0",
"planet_number equal 124"
);
do = (
"checkForShips: graveCoriolis", {
conditions = ("shipsFound_number lessthan 1");
do = ( "addShipsAt: coriolis 1 wpu 0 0 0.5" );
}
);
},
{
conditions = (
"status_string equal STATUS_EXITING_WITCHSPACE",
"galaxy_number equal 0",
"planet_number equal 124"
);
do = (
"checkForShips: graveCoriolis", {
conditions = ("shipsFound_number lessthan 1");
do = ( "addShipsAt: coriolis 1 wpu 0 0 0.5" );
}
);
}
);


Note that the above is a guess.

I don't really understand the 'addShipsAt' line. can anybody tell me what the parameters are?

If we want to free this discussion up for other ship building, I created a topic in Suggestion Box a while ago about the graveyard. We could move there, if you like...

http://aegidian.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=617
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Rxke

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:33 am Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post
Ok.

Um *To Do* Laughing

-weed out this topic, put the bits pertaining the Graveyard there...
-delete posts that don't belong here
-offer apologies to Arexack_Heretic for hijacking his thread.


Sorry, Arexack_Heretic, it was rude.

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Post by Selezen » Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:57 am

Coo! Megapost!

Ok, graveyard layout. How about 3 types of generic monument? Maybe 50 of each type initially in the graveyard, then that leaves enough space for custom jobbies without pushing the object numbers up too high.

That, plus a coriolis station (or maybe a custom station) and the six perimiter bouys.

Generic monuments would be simple shapes: obelisks, copies of the Oolite monument, pyramids, whatever - something easy to render and made of triangles! The custom monuments could be more complex, seeing as they would be more limited in number.

We could even have a message that is broadcast when in range of the central station that states you must keep your speed down to 10% whilst in the perimiter. That should make the rendering easier?

Is that last part too ambitious?

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Post by Rxke » Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:01 am

So, back to normal. :)

re: Selezen the station in th middle.

I guess this would work, ik you put it before the generatin of 250+ tombstones... Otherwize it might get generated somewhere inconvenient :lol:

About the coordinatesystem: it's just great: very flexible... Giles has the whole xplanation:
• v1.47: Added a "addShipsAt: ship_role n coordinate_system x y z" script method. This has been much requested, and I've tried to make the system as flexible as possible.
The coordinate_system is a cartesian coordinate system whose x, y , and z axes are determined by a three letter code where:

The first letter indicates the feature that is the origin of the coordinate system.
w => witchpoint
s => sun
p => planet

The next letter indicates the feature on the 'z' axis of the coordinate system.
w => witchpoint
s => sun
p => planet

Then the 'y' axis of the system is normal to the plane formed by the planet, sun and witchpoint.
And the 'x' axis of the system is normal to the y and z axes.
So the axes for each combination of origin and z-axis feature are:
ps: z axis = (planet -> sun) y axis = normal to (planet - sun - witchpoint) x axis = normal to y and z axes
pw: z axis = (planet -> witchpoint) y axis = normal to (planet - witchpoint - sun) x axis = normal to y and z axes
sp: z axis = (sun -> planet) y axis = normal to (sun - planet - witchpoint) x axis = normal to y and z axes
sw: z axis = (sun -> witchpoint) y axis = normal to (sun - witchpoint - planet) x axis = normal to y and z axes
wp: z axis = (witchpoint -> planet) y axis = normal to (witchpoint - planet - sun) x axis = normal to y and z axes
ws: z axis = (witchpoint -> sun) y axis = normal to (witchpoint - sun - planet) x axis = normal to y and z axes

The third letter denotes the units used:
m: meters
p: planetary radii
s: solar radii
u: distance between first two features indicated (eg. spu means that u = distance from sun to the planet)

Thus: "addShipsAt: pirate 5 pwm 0 0 750000" would add five ships with a role of "pirate" clustered around a point 750000 meters (..m) from center of the planet (p) towards the witchpoint (w), "addShips: trader 2 spu 0 0 0.5 would add two traders halfway (0.5 ..u) between the sun (s) and the planet (p), and "addShips: hunter 1 wpp -1 2 3" would add a bounty hunter 1 planetary radius (..p) to the left of, 2 planetary radii above, and 3 planetary radii along the line from the witchpoint (w) to the planet (p).

The degree of random scattering within a cube around the designated point is related to the units used, with a maximum of 25.6km and a minimum of 1km.

This method should allow the greatest degree of flexibility in specifying in-system locations.
Note that instead of eg. pwm, you can just as easy use wpm, it that's more convenient for your visualisation during writing (for me it was, I thought about the Yard, coming from the witchpoint, so i used w (witchpoint) to p (planet...)

My trial is not really workable, as it is, or maybe it is, after all... Been thinking about how to actually test this out when machine goes to 4FPS (actually its more like .4fps when close to the yard...)

I'm pretty sure Giles coding skills have thought about collisions, so generating immobile objects randomly should not lead to a massive debrisfield, if one observes some caution... (more in a minute, phone

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